Warhammer 40k Forum and Wargaming Forums banner
1 - 20 of 22 Posts

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,563 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
One of my regular 40K opponents has been sucked into WHFB again by 8th Edition, and has challenged me to some games at the end of September. The main aim - besides having fun - is for him to practice the new rules.

He has a Mordheim VC band that he intends to expand to a full FB army and Daemons from 3.5 Emperors Children CSM with swappable bases, so I will be facing either a VC army with Skeletons or a Daemons army with Daemonettes; beyond that I do not know specifics.

So, based on what I have painted plus a little bit extra for what I think I can paint in the next 10 days or so I have drafted a potential force to face either army:


Lords

None

Heroes

Chaos Sorcerer of Nurgle 180
Level 2
Infernal Puppet
Biting Blade
Favour of the Gods

- will go in the Warrior unit


Core

11 Chaos Warriors of Nurgle 247
Champion
Musician
Standard Bearer
Halberd
Shield


20 Chaos Marauders of Slaanesh 122
Musician
Standard Bearer
Shield


Special

5 Chaos Knights of Nurgle 315
Champion
Musician
Standard Bearer
Banner of Rage



Rare

Chaos Warshrine 130


Total: 994

As possible alternatives I have:
(i) Slaanesh Character on Steed
(ii) More Knights
(iii) Marauder Horsemen
(iv) More Marauders
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
34 Posts
personally in 1000 points i wouldnt run knights. if you drop them, put the banner of rage on the warriors, get a couple more warriors and maybe another 20ish man squad of mauraders you would be better off in my opinion. Also with the mauraders having only a 6+/6+ save isnt that great. when i run them i run them slightly larger units with flails and no armor. against VC having no save would might hurt in combat res but killing on 2s against everthing but bloodknights, graveguard and characters you should make that up.

As for magic Nurgle is pretty good, i am partial to tzeentch but fluff wise nurgle is good for your army.

Other than that looks good
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,563 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thank you for your suggestions. I might ignore some of them for lack of model/proxy reasons.

personally in 1000 points i wouldnt run knights.
Because they are too expensive? or too powerful?

get a couple more warriors
Do you mean actually 2, or enough to make up a rank?

If you do mean another rank, how wide a unit?

Also with the mauraders having only a 6+/6+ save isnt that great. when i run them i run them slightly larger units with flails and no armor. against VC having no save would might hurt in combat res but killing on 2s against everthing but bloodknights, graveguard and characters you should make that up.
Valid point.

My marauders are currently modelled as:

10 Hand weapon and Shield : 10 Great Weapon : 20 Sprue

It would have a certain humour fielding them with flails :)

As combat seems more protracted in 8th, I would be concerned at losing the punch after round one.

As for magic Nurgle is pretty good, i am partial to tzeentch but fluff wise nurgle is good for your army.
Tzeentch does appear great; however, having played mono-Tzeentch in 40K for many years I decided not to use the mark for a while.

Anyone else have a strong opinion on the list?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,359 Posts
One of my regular 40K opponents has been sucked into WHFB again by 8th Edition, and has challenged me to some games at the end of September. The main aim - besides having fun - is for him to practice the new rules.

He has a Mordheim VC band that he intends to expand to a full FB army and Daemons from 3.5 Emperors Children CSM with swappable bases, so I will be facing either a VC army with Skeletons or a Daemons army with Daemonettes; beyond that I do not know specifics.

So, based on what I have painted plus a little bit extra for what I think I can paint in the next 10 days or so I have drafted a potential force to face either army:


Lords

None

Heroes

Chaos Sorcerer of Nurgle 180
Level 2
Infernal Puppet
Biting Blade
Favour of the Gods

- will go in the Warrior unit
Seems decent and pretty funny.

Core

11 Chaos Warriors of Nurgle 247
Champion
Musician
Standard Bearer
Halberd
Shield

Is the champion there to issue/accept challenges on behalf of your sorcerer? If not, I would drop him. Not worth the points.

20 Chaos Marauders of Slaanesh 122
Musician
Standard Bearer
Shield

These guys are waaay funnier with MoK and flails/GWs. Hell, a block of 40 with flails, MoK and command will only cost 250. That's so awesome. But smaller units are still better. But nowhere near as terrifying to behold.

Special

5 Chaos Knights of Nurgle 315
Champion
Musician
Standard Bearer
Banner of Rage

I'd drop these too. Too expensive imo for the points level. More warriors is always useful. Or a horde of marauders! Man, I'll never get tired of that.

Rare

Chaos Warshrine 130
If you can find the points, it has to MoT. If not, who cares?

Total: 994

As possible alternatives I have:
(i) Slaanesh Character on Steed
(ii) More Knights
(iii) Marauder Horsemen
(iv) More Marauders
Well, thats what I can think of. But the army is fine enough as it is. When it's for friendly games, I really don't see why we should comment on it. Unless your afraid it's too cheesy. If that's the case the answer is: No.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,563 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH

Lords

None

Heroes

Chaos Sorcerer of Nurgle 180
Level 2
Infernal Puppet
Biting Blade
Favour of the Gods
- will go in the Warrior unit
Seems decent and pretty funny.

Excellent

Core

11 Chaos Warriors of Nurgle 247
Champion
Musician
Standard Bearer
Halberd
Shield

Is the champion there to issue/accept challenges on behalf of your sorcerer? If not, I would drop him. Not worth the points.

Spot on. If I am lucky he will benefit from the Shrine but mainly to stop my Sorcerer getting smashed by a CC monster.

20 Chaos Marauders of Slaanesh 122
Musician
Standard Bearer
Shield

These guys are waaay funnier with MoK and flails/GWs. Hell, a block of 40 with flails, MoK and command will only cost 250. That's so awesome. But smaller units are still better. But nowhere near as terrifying to behold.

Not struck with MoK for Marauders. Fun enough to change the shields for GW?

Special

5 Chaos Knights of Nurgle 315
Champion
Musician
Standard Bearer
Banner of Rage

I'd drop these too. Too expensive imo for the points level. More warriors is always useful. Or a horde of marauders! Man, I'll never get tired of that.

I do not have more Warriors; will consider Marauders


Rare

Chaos Warshrine 130
If you can find the points, it has to MoT. If not, who cares?

Total: 994
When it's for friendly games, I really don't see why we should comment on it. Unless your afraid it's too cheesy. If that's the case the answer is: No.
I have not faced either VC or DoC yet so I wanted a sanity check that it was not (i) stupidly lethal against one of them or (ii) going to get whipped by one of them because I had forgotten a key thing.
 

·
Porn King!!!
Joined
·
8,137 Posts
Just a couple of thoughts from me regarding the units themselves as I haven't faced either VC or Daemons in the new edition yet.

1) the sorcerer. With the changes to magic, especially the miscast table I would NEVER put him in a unit of anything, anywhere, ever again. Sorcs are much better off on a mount of some kind and zipping around on their own than being in a unit that they may accidentally obliterate with the wrong miscast roll. The puppet will help with that possibility but even then you may still end up regretting it. I say keep him on his own.

2) the knights. Waaaaay too expensive for 1000pts. Cav has been toned down a fair deal in 8th ed and aren't nearly as good as they used to be and at this point level they are a massive point sink. I would drop them in favour of more core choices.

3) champs. I don't honestly think that champs are worth it but you do have the shrine on the table which gives them the EotG roll so they aren't quite so bad. Without the shrine they are a ton of points for essentially one more attack and just aren't worth it. I don't have my book on hand so I may be mistaken but unlike what aaaaarrg suggested I am fairly certain that champs can't accept/issue a challenge before a character anyway so he is still a waste of points if that is why you took him. I would suggest not taking champs at all to be honest.

4) marauders. Suck, period. Sure you can spam a metric fuckton of them but they still are nowhere near as good for their points as Warriors. If that is all you have then so be it but they suck so I would recommend not wasting either money or points on them. Warriors and Chosen are the way to go for WoC.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,563 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Thanks; more things to think about.

1) the sorcerer. With the changes to magic, especially the miscast table I would NEVER put him in a unit of anything, anywhere, ever again. Sorcs are much better off on a mount of some kind and zipping around on their own than being in a unit that they may accidentally obliterate with the wrong miscast roll. The puppet will help with that possibility but even then you may still end up regretting it. I say keep him on his own.
That had not occurred to me. I see the risk.

I might have to come up with a mounted model instead; if I do drop the knights then I can use one of them.

2) the knights. Waaaaay too expensive for 1000pts. Cav has been toned down a fair deal in 8th ed and aren't nearly as good as they used to be and at this point level they are a massive point sink. I would drop them in favour of more core choices.
I have tried rebuilding without them; I have limited core models so would probably end up with lots of Marauder legs.

3) champs. I don't honestly think that champs are worth it but you do have the shrine on the table which gives them the EotG roll so they aren't quite so bad. Without the shrine they are a ton of points for essentially one more attack and just aren't worth it. I don't have my book on hand so I may be mistaken but unlike what aaaaarrg suggested I am fairly certain that champs can't accept/issue a challenge before a character anyway so he is still a waste of points if that is why you took him. I would suggest not taking champs at all to be honest.
My reading of the rules is that, as both champions and characters must accept challenges, I can use the champion in place of the sorcerer; the rule is not perfectly clear though.

I agree champions are not worth it for the extra attack alone.

4) marauders. Suck, period. Sure you can spam a metric fuckton of them but they still are nowhere near as good for their points as Warriors. If that is all you have then so be it but they suck so I would recommend not wasting either money or points on them. Warriors and Chosen are the way to go for WoC.
I have lots of Marauders (some of which my opponent bought me for my birthday) so that is what I have. I intend to buy more Warriors when I have assembled some way through the backlog.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23 Posts
Lords

None

Heroes

Chaos Sorcerer of Nurgle 180
Level 2
Infernal Puppet
Biting Blade
Favour of the Gods

- will go in the Warrior unit

Personally I quite like using a Fire Mage (saves you spending out on the mark and you get some really nasty destructive spells in there - mines mounted in a chariot but that'd be points heavy for your needs perhaps?!)


Core

11 Chaos Warriors of Nurgle 247
Champion
Musician
Standard Bearer
Halberd
Shield


Bog standard compulsory chaos unit, though i prefer shield + H/w, its irrelevant... KEEP THESE!!!

20 Chaos Marauders of Slaanesh 122
Musician
Standard Bearer
Shield


As with other statements I prefer flails myself and big units 25+ Would possibly put sorc in with these (encourage opponent to charge (then flank him with your warriors give warriors war banner)

Special

5 Chaos Knights of Nurgle 315
Champion
Musician
Standard Bearer
Banner of Rage

Drop these, replace with second large block of marauders or another warrior unit, and chaos hounds as a "meat shield" or deploy a larger unit to flank him (not very effective but gives yopu much eeded mobility and your opponent something to think about!) Personally I field even in small games about 20 hounds in 5's and 10's to distract my opponent even keep some behind my marauders to flank / counter charge who ever they get in to combat with.

Rare

Chaos Warshrine 130
hmmm.... I'd replace with a chariot (but i love chariots so i'm biased!) or marauder cav / warriors / spawns?!

Total: 994

As possible alternatives I have:
(i) Slaanesh Character on Steed
(ii) More Knights
(iii) Marauder Horsemen
(iv) More Marauders

I am of course just being nitpicky there your list is pretty solid but thats just how I would work it personally!
 

·
Porn King!!!
Joined
·
8,137 Posts
My reading of the rules is that, as both champions and characters must accept challenges, I can use the champion in place of the sorcerer; the rule is not perfectly clear though
Pg. 43 of the Chaos armybook, Eye of the Gods rule, 2nd paragraph

"Chaos models that may issue challenges must do so whenever they are able. Furthermore, such is their thirst for glory that Chaos characters may not refuse challenges.

A champ is not a character despite the fact that he acts like one during a challenge. Therefore your sorc could never hide behind the champ if he didn't want to accept the challenge. He MUST challenge and he MUST accept them as well.


Heh the amusing thing is that I think the EotG table is about as useless as tits on a bull. You have to kill an enemy character or large target to get a roll on it. Even with the shrine to give champs a roll on it, you probably still won't roll on it. Hell, in all the games I have played since the WoC book came out I think I have rolled on that table maybe, MAYBE, six times at best. Now if you could get a roll for winning a challenge it would be a whole different ball game.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,563 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Pg. 43 of the Chaos armybook, Eye of the Gods rule, 2nd paragraph

"Chaos models that may issue challenges must do so whenever they are able. Furthermore, such is their thirst for glory that Chaos characters may not refuse challenges.

A champ is not a character despite the fact that he acts like one during a challenge. Therefore your sorc could never hide behind the champ if he didn't want to accept the challenge. He MUST challenge and he MUST accept them as well.
However, FAQ V1.1 (16 June 2010):

Q. Does the compulsion to issue and accept challenges apply to all models or only to models with the Eye of the Gods special rule? (p43)
A. It applies to all models capable of issuing challenges.


The rules permit Unit Champion to issue a challenge, so the Champion is capable of issuing challenges and is thus subject to the rule as well; therefore I get to choose which of them accepts.

The alternative is that both Champion and Sorcerer must accept the challenge leading to massive calls of foul as two Chaos Worshippers bundle the opposing hero.

Heh the amusing thing is that I think the EotG table is about as useless as tits on a bull. You have to kill an enemy character or large target to get a roll on it. Even with the shrine to give champs a roll on it, you probably still won't roll on it. Hell, in all the games I have played since the WoC book came out I think I have rolled on that table maybe, MAYBE, six times at best. Now if you could get a roll for winning a challenge it would be a whole different ball game.
I agree the chance of a champion actually gaining from it are slim; I would still put champions in most units when using a Warshrine so I do not feel cheated the one time a core unit slays a dragon.
 

·
Porn King!!!
Joined
·
8,137 Posts
Even that faq doesn't change the fact that the character must accept the challenge if both are present, it just means that the champ must accept if he is challenged. If there is only a champ in the squad then he takes the challenge, same if there is only a character. But if both are present, the character is the one that must accept the challenge. The same applies to offering a challenge, the character may not refuse to either offer or accept a challenge, even if a champ is there as well.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,563 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
The FAQ states that the compulsion applies to all models so it overrides both the general rule relating to refusing challenges and the rule permitting champions to ignore challenges.

Neither the Army Book nor the FAQ refer to a hierarchy, so if there is more than one person capable of fighting in a challenge in the combat none of them can refuse whether they are a champion or a character. The rule itself overrides the general rules on refusal by champions so I find the only logical construction of the specific rule as making acceptance by a champion not refusal in the same way as one character from two accepting would to count as the other refusing.

Without a statement of hierarchy, any other interpretation leaves me with the issue that, if the character accepts the challenge, the champion is breaking the rules as they are also compelled to accept. However, as I said previously, the rule is not perfect so I can see why you think it means something different.
 

·
Porn King!!!
Joined
·
8,137 Posts
Yeah, we will have to agree to disagree on this one as it can be read both ways. Mind you, my way is right muahahahahaha!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
442 Posts
the character would have to accept a challenge if both where presant but the champ couold issue a challenge over the character i believe as there is no rule stating he takes preference
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,563 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Yeah, we will have to agree to disagree on this one as it can be read both ways. Mind you, my way is right muahahahahaha!
Evil laughter; that would make you the villain, so your reasoning will prove fatally flawed in the end:wink:

the character would have to accept a challenge if both where presant but the champ couold issue a challenge over the character i believe as there is no rule stating he takes preference
I think that is a different interpretation from both Wraithlord the Moustache Twirler's fatally flawed evil logic and my heroic triumph of reason.

We agree that there is no rule stating an order of preference.

However, I believe that the situation is the same for both issuing and accepting: either a character must do both if present (Wraithlord) or a character or champion must do both (me).

Another approach is that the person whose turn it is picks whether or not champions are taken as equal to characters.

Returning to the original purpose of the thread for a moment, I have an alternative list for comment and comparison:


Heroes

Chaos Sorcerer of Nurgle 221
Level 2
Chaos Steed
Biting Blade
Infernal Puppet
Bloodcurdling Roar



Core

20 Chaos Marauders of Slaanesh 142
Musician
Standard Bearer
Light Armour
Shield


20 Chaos Marauders of Slaanesh 138
Musician
Standard Bearer
Great Weapon
Light Armour


5 Marauder Horsemen of Slaanesh 118
Musician
Standard Bearer
Flail
Throwing Axe
Light Armour



Special

12 Chosen of Nurgle 380
Champion
- Book of Secrets
Musician
Standard Bearer
- Banner of Rage
Halberd
Shield



Total Cost: 998
 

·
Dark Knight
Joined
·
985 Posts
Evil laughter; that would make you the villain, so your reasoning will prove fatally flawed in the end:wink:



I think that is a different interpretation from both Wraithlord the Moustache Twirler's fatally flawed evil logic and my heroic triumph of reason.

We agree that there is no rule stating an order of preference.

However, I believe that the situation is the same for both issuing and accepting: either a character must do both if present (Wraithlord) or a character or champion must do both (me).

Another approach is that the person whose turn it is picks whether or not champions are taken as equal to characters.

Returning to the original purpose of the thread for a moment, I have an alternative list for comment and comparison:


Heroes

Chaos Sorcerer of Nurgle 221
Level 2
Chaos Steed
Biting Blade
Infernal Puppet
Bloodcurdling Roar


Good Blood curdling roar is better in bigger games (Empire knights :laugh:)

Core

20 Chaos Marauders of Slaanesh 142
Musician
Standard Bearer
Light Armour
Shield


20 Chaos Marauders of Slaanesh 138
Musician
Standard Bearer
Great Weapon
Light Armour


5 Marauder Horsemen of Slaanesh 118
Musician
Standard Bearer
Flail
Throwing Axe
Light Armour


really don't like mark of Slaanesh all the other marks are better
Special

12 Chosen of Nurgle 380
Champion
- Book of Secrets
Musician
Standard Bearer
- Banner of Rage
Halberd
Shield

nice they are better with a warshine and l would hate to mis cast (will most likely kill the whole squad)

Total Cost: 998
Over all good list As of the EftG table l have had game winning rolls with it, in a funny match l had MoT on my chosen and l got a 12 on my 1st free roll and my warshine roll got me a 3. needless to say l only lost 3 chosen that day, in other games l just a 8 and 9 roll which really sucks :( in the end it can be really good or really bad just got to hope for that 12 :wink:
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,563 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Thank you for your comments Sybarite

Heroes

Chaos Sorcerer of Nurgle 221
Level 2
Chaos Steed
Biting Blade
Infernal Puppet
Bloodcurdling Roar

Good Blood curdling roar is better in bigger games (Empire knights )
I thought, as he was not aiming to be in combat as often as possible, that he might get some use out of it. With reasonable luck generating spells, I hope to ruin some poor unit's day in a single turn.

Core

20 Chaos Marauders of Slaanesh 142
Musician
Standard Bearer
Light Armour
Shield

20 Chaos Marauders of Slaanesh 138
Musician
Standard Bearer
Great Weapon
Light Armour

5 Marauder Horsemen of Slaanesh 118
Musician
Standard Bearer
Flail
Throwing Axe
Light Armour

really don't like mark of Slaanesh all the other marks are better
I do not have more Marauders or Horsemen, so dropping the Marks for more bodies would cause issues.

If I were to change, which Mark would you suggest and what would you drop to pay for it?

Special

12 Chosen of Nurgle 380
Champion
- Book of Secrets
Musician
Standard Bearer
- Banner of Rage
Halberd
Shield
nice they are better with a warshine and l would hate to mis cast (will most likely kill the whole squad)
I would have loved to have a Warshrine in there as well; however, I do not have time to assemble 20 Marauders and a Warshrine.

The Book of Secrets is there for a bit of fun; as I am unlikely to be pumping huge amounts of dice into the spell and have Infernal Puppet I am hoping to avoid bad miscasts.

As of the EftG table l have had game winning rolls with it, in a funny match l had MoT on my chosen and l got a 12 on my 1st free roll and my warshine roll got me a 3. needless to say l only lost 3 chosen that day, in other games l just a 8 and 9 roll which really sucks :( in the end it can be really good or really bad just got to hope for that 12 :wink:
I take the view that any of them improve the unit, so I am not too grief stricken if I get a middling roll; so more serious lists I might take Favour of the Gods on the Champion.
 

·
Dark Knight
Joined
·
985 Posts
well mark of Slaanesh is only good vs vampire's and demons due to the will of chaos saving you from most panic issues and most other army's don't have many units that cause fear or terror but you are going ageist vamps and you cant have more bodies its the best mark to have :biggrin:.

Blood curdling on average (2-D6 so you will get 7's then one 6) will kill one man a turn now if you use it ageist core units bit of a waste ageist any knight unit its very good

The Book of Secrets even with Infernal Puppet means a roll of a 1 - 3 on your d 6 and the unit will most likely die (The Book of Secrets is 1D6 + 1 on miss cast)
and you need to get 7 or more so you unit doesn't get killed :wink:.

and on your Chosen of Nurgle if there ageist vamps who don't have much shooting l would take MoK or MoT
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,563 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
More ideas to consider.

...mark of Slaanesh is only good vs vampire's and demons due to the will of chaos saving you from most panic issues... you are going ageist vamps and you cant have more bodies its the best mark to have :biggrin:.
Having not seen the army book I was not sure how Fear/Terror casing VC were. Good to know I guessed right.

With the Chosen being permanently Frenzied I am hoping nothing is going to get scared by anything.

Blood curdling on average (2-D6 so you will get 7's then one 6) will kill one man a turn now....
I believe Zombies are low enough Toughness to only need 5+, so average at slightly above 2 kills per use.

I am not planning to exclusivity hunt core units; I would love to smack something expensive; Roar just gives me a chance to trim a wound (or two) in the Shooting Phase which I could not use for anything else anyway.

The Book of Secrets even with Infernal Puppet means a roll of a 1 - 3 on your d 6 and the unit will most likely die (The Book of Secrets is 1D6 + 1 on miss cast)
and you need to get 7 or more so you unit doesn't get killed :wink:.
Indeed; however, if I am using a maximum of 2 dice per cast I only have a 1/36 probability of miscasting, so the risk of a terrible miscast is 1/72. Given it is a combat unit I will probably not be casting every turn, so I think it is worth it for the fun aspect.

Also, it gives the unit some bite if I do fail a charge.

I am divided between Death and Shadows:sniping a champion/character is useful, but de-buffing a unit will increase the chances of utter destruction in the nest turn (de-buffing movement if the charge fails for instance to stop the blighters running away).

...on your Chosen of Nurgle if there ageist vamps who don't have much shooting l would take MoK or MoT
I do not know which I will be facing; if it turns out to be Daemons shooting is a possibility.

With halberds I will not be using shields in combat which is where Tzeentch really cones in useful, and I am trying to avoid Tzeentch for a while anyway.

They are currently permanently Frenzied, so Khorne would make them less fighty as it could be beaten out of them... although I could take another banner.
 
1 - 20 of 22 Posts
Top