[SMBA]

voluntary falling back & do I have to fight back

What is the story with voluntary falling back, can you still do it and if so what are the rules for it.
If not, how come?? Why shouldn't I be able to run/fall back before things turn to crap instead of standing there and waiting for 30 orks to beat me to dust :biggrin: lol

and 2nd question

When in combat do I have to fight back, can i choose not to roll my dice because i want to keep the enemy unit alive long enough for what ever reason?

 

[torealis]

as discussed in chat, neither of these things are possible in 4th edition 40k.

 

[Someguy]

If you want to run away from orks, do it in the movement phase with normal movement. Otherwise you could run up to a mob, shoot them and then run off before they could do anything, which would be stupid.

 

[Bishop120]

Recommend aggreeing on a house rule that allows for voluntary fall back if your loosing HtH combat... ergo looser in HtH can forgoe LD test and just fall back per normal fall back rules.. which means your subject to being wiped out if you fail in the Init compare off.

 

[Morgal]

Recommend aggreeing on a house rule that allows for voluntary fall back if your loosing HtH combat... ergo looser in HtH can forgoe LD test and just fall back per normal fall back rules.. which means your subject to being wiped out if you fail in the Init compare off.

Is this a common house rule? if so i could badly abuse this rule..

Anyways i'd say no, you can't run because you will die, however the moral test shows running away leaving friends to die and possibly being cought in a sweeping advance.

 

[Bishop120]

Its pretty common around here. How would you abuse it? The only diffrence we do is that the looser rather than rolling LD as normal to determine if he falls back just bypasses rolling and says that he lost. After that things progress normally.. they dice off Init and if the looser "looses" he gets wiped (unless hes marines or fearless then he cant fall back and is subject to the fearless outnumbered rule).

 

[Deceiver]

you would have to have a special character or ability that states you can choose to fail a leadership roll ( I.e. Marneus Calgar ) in order to do it legally.
you could do the house rule as mentioned in other posts. just avoid being assaulted in the 1rst place. plenty of blast wpns and tons of rapid fire will whittle down the ork hordes.

 

[The Son of Horus]

Simple. It's my turn next? I'm outclassed in combat, but can shoot the bejesus out of them (tau...)... oh, I'll fall back AND LEAVE THE ENEMY UNIT EXPOSED FOR SHOOTING by choosing the option that suits me best in a situation you're not supposed to have any control over. You can also abuse it by doing a voluntary fall back and charge right back into combat in the subsequent turn. Rally (or, if Space Marines, not even worry about it most of the time) and pick up an extra attack as you go back in.

 

[Morgal]

As guard i would always fall back and you would alway be getting shot at... thats how i'd abuse it. that squad is dead next round anyways i may as well shoot at you...

you can sort of do this with low leadership units though,, have an officer near, when you ant to fall back move him out of the way.

 

[Someguy]

Voluntary fall back is just an advantage for marines and shooting armies.

If you play a shooting army and your unit is charged then it's dead whatever happens, unless somehow it escapes. The worst thing is actually to pass a morale test when charged, as then you can't shoot the unit in your own turn and it can charge something else after it kills the survivors.

The effect is that you always choose to VFB if it's your turn next, especially if you play marines or a shooty army. It's just a clear advantage to those kinds of armies.

 

[Bishop120]

Are people forgetting that the looser who is voluntarily falling back still has to test Init to see if they get away or get wiped? Hello lets look at this... Tau = Init 2, Guard = Init 3,.. shooting armies have a flaw there. If I let you fall back voluntarily if you loose combat I have a better chance of wiping you out when you fail at Init tests.

Again it is a house rule... I just fail to see how it can be abused.

 

[Morgal]

after being assaulted by CC specialist my int 3 guard won't last another turn in CC with you cc specialists.

heck i don't care if i fail, i want to roll a 1 so that you don't move as far. this means i can shoot the bejezus out of you.

lossing a squad is nothing....i have 5 more, so i sacrifice my 85 point half dead squad who is usless as they will die in combat during my assault phase and you will still get to move 6" and assault another squad on yours....or

I fall back, possibly lose the squad, but i get to shoot you...kiss your 250 point terminator squad good bye.

So i lose nothing more even if i fail 100% of the time but i get to shoot you. losing a squad is nothing if i get to kill yours.

Also since i never have to worry about being locked into CC with a unit moving from squad to squad i don't need counter assault units or meatshields....i just need more shooty.

With these rules no CC army could even come close to defeating me.....it wouldn't be fair.

 

[Bishop120]

Well I can argue on the other hand that this gives CC army the power.. rather than having to stay tied up in CC with 4-5 guardsman who remarkably made their LD test we get to move out and try to tie another guard squad up in combat. That guard squad that is running whether it gets wiped out or not will more than likely be under half so it will not be able to regroup and will continue to run untill it gets off the board. Also even if we didnt wipe you out and you did regroup whose to say you will get to shoot next turn?? You might have lost combat in your turn and the next turn will be mine where I get to assualt back into you getting bonuses for charge again.

For every bonus you can think of using it for a shooty army theres a bonus that a CC army gets for it. Its not over powered and it can be abused by both armies. Again to get to use the voluntary rule you have to loose combat, you have to make it out without being wiped out, and you have to make it far enough that my guys cant catch you if you so choose. Thats not something that can be abused. Can it give you a bonus? maybe.. can it give an assualt army a bonus? maybe again.. Is it forced? No. Its just an optional house rule we allow.. both players have to agree to use it so if I think you really have the power to abuse it I just wont allow you to use but if you ask me... eh.. I have no problem with it..

Also this helps us have fun with the inexperienced players giving them a chance and it lets us have fun with fluff like watching a guard squad break, run, regroup, and counter assualt. Im not argueing this for tournaments or anything, just saying that Voluntary fall back is just that.. Voluntary. If it makes the game more fun for you then aggree to it with your opponent and use it.

 

[Someguy]

You might have lost combat in your turn and the next turn will be mine where I get to assualt back into you getting bonuses for charge again.

No, this will never happen, ever. At all. That's the whole point and why it is broken.

I am not going to charge your marines with my Tau. I am always going to lose if you charge me and always going to chose to fall back if given the choice. Therefore I am not going to be in close combat during my assault phase. If I was, I would choose not to fall back voluntarily, since it costs you a turn if you are locked. But that won't happen.

For a shooty army the worst thing that can happen is to have one of your units locked with a big scary CC unit and have other stuff nearby that they will follow up into. VFB allows you to ensure that this never happens. You just space out your units and always fall back. You get some units wiped out that were already dead the second they got engaged, so who cares? You might be lucky and have a unit or two escape every now and then. Far more importantly, you are not in CC during your turn so you can move away from and shoot at the scary CC enemy.

It's different with marines. You don't have to worry about getting wiped out if you VFB, you just get a chance to escape from the combat, rally, and fire at the guys who charged you. If you don't escape you just stay locked. There is no down side for you either, but you get the added bonus that you can (and automatically do) regroup even if below half strength, so long as you get at least 6" away.

 

[purepolarpanzer]

Well I can argue on the other hand that this gives CC army the power.. rather than having to stay tied up in CC with 4-5 guardsman who remarkably made their LD test we get to move out and try to tie another guard squad up in combat. That guard squad that is running whether it gets wiped out or not will more than likely be under half so it will not be able to regroup and will continue to run untill it gets off the board. Also even if we didnt wipe you out and you did regroup whose to say you will get to shoot next turn?? You might have lost combat in your turn and the next turn will be mine where I get to assualt back into you getting bonuses for charge again.

For every bonus you can think of using it for a shooty army theres a bonus that a CC army gets for it. Its not over powered and it can be abused by both armies. Again to get to use the voluntary rule you have to loose combat, you have to make it out without being wiped out, and you have to make it far enough that my guys cant catch you if you so choose. Thats not something that can be abused. Can it give you a bonus? maybe.. can it give an assualt army a bonus? maybe again.. Is it forced? No. Its just an optional house rule we allow.. both players have to agree to use it so if I think you really have the power to abuse it I just wont allow you to use but if you ask me... eh.. I have no problem with it..

I don't know where you play 40k, but where I play this whole passage is false.

I play alot of Tyranids. Genestealers specifically. And when I massacre the Tau in combat, you have no idea how overjoyed I am when they pass leadership with 2-3 guys left. It's when they succeed that I get worrie. Because if they somehow manage to beat me on init, they move out of combat. All my expensive genestealer killing machines left in an open field with Tau guns everywhere? This is the worst thing that can happen.

On the other hand, if they pass LD and stay in combat, I kill the rest on their turn, move 1d6 towards another unit, and get another assault in my turn.

I kill alot more tau and my army doesn't die as quick. If you could voluntarily fail LD, every Tau or guard player would. Exchanging your one already KILLED squad for my very live very expensive Genestealer/Veteran Assault Marines/ Anything good in close combat is never EVER a good trade for the assault army.

No... just no...

 

[Bishop120]

Well thats because you have genestealers with paper for armor. I play marines. I have no problem shrugging off Tau and Imp Guard firepower. The sooner Im out of HtH the sooner I can charge another unit. I've had no problems with it so far and it my mind it works out good for me if their allowed to voluntarily fall back and take the risk of being tore up/wiped out. Personally I run both Grey Knights and Space Marines. My first army was Tau (which I still have bout 2000pts worth of). Its worked out a lot for me sometimes and sometimes it works out for my opponent. Usually it just progresses the game.. it allows us to actually move on. Your shooty armies will not always have someone nearby to "overwhelm" my unit with fire. Honestly if I've assualted in and thats the situation I was stupid to begin with.. personally when I assualt I try to think of all the outcomes first and if Im going to be "on my own" against that kinda firepower Im probably loosing already.

 

[Lord Sinkoran]

I wonder how many people made a unit volentary fall back and then relise the unit couldn't rally:laugh::biggrin:

 

[Bishop120]

Several of my opponents....:wink::victory:

 

[Lord Sinkoran]

Several of my opponents....:wink::victory:

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[Morgal]

Well in friendly games it's fine as it may be fun.

But still esentially your letting me shoot into your units when other wise i would not. You say your marines and you laugh at tau and guard? even one marine kill is one marine kill that would not have been possible when locked in combat. never mind i could fall back 1" open with a flamer and stay there.

okay...
you shoot then harge my 10 guard......not many are left. under 1/2 i'd say.
my turn i move away, shoot there las gun and special weapon..you lose about 1-2 marines(usually special is plasma, and hey i'm in rapid fire range)

I then get to shoot anyother squads weapons at you.. with a HB a plasma and las guns out side rapid fire you stil losing 2-3 guys.
your squad is almost 1/2 wiped out never mind if i shot some before coming in.

so now it's your turn. you can assault the already fleeing squad, but you say you'll charge a new squad...

you would have anyways as my guys would have died on my assault phase.

So you have lost more guys and gained nothing.

also your abuse you run away from a winning fight and risk getting swept by a week squad. and even if you do make it out of range the week squad still shoots.

Essentially your letting me shoot into close combat when ever i chose.

Also i can move my not in combat squads 6" away..if they are are already 6" away i get yet another turn shooting at you...

your abuses will never happen...i will never ever ever be in combat on your turn....ever.

the scariest part of CC is not losing guys....but not being able to shoot.