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Rattlehead
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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
A thread in which we try to allay the fears of big damn robots ruining everyone's game. A few things to remember that a few people have gotten confused about or simply forgotten:

1. Gargantuan Creatures automatically have Feel No Pain, but not It Will Not Die. I myself was guilty of thinking that this was a thing until recently.
2. The Wraithknight does not get an Invulnerable *and* a ranged Destroyer weapon - it has to choose between ranged Destroyer or the Shield.
3. While it does have 12" move unhindered by cover for being a Jump Gargantuan Creature and has Move Through Cover, it does not ignore the Initiative Penalty for charging through terrain with it's large base.
4. Gargantuan Creatures are only wounded on 6s by Poison and Sniper weapons, but any other fixed value wounding will still work; Deathmarks, Fleshbane, Agonisers if they still work how they did in the old book; 'Unstoppable' does not give you blanket defence from fixed to wound rolls. Also, they're not quite immune to Instant Death; they just take large amounts of wounds instead of rolling over and dying straight away. Sure, it's not as good, but if you can Instant Death then do so. Works for Fantasy, works for 40k.
5. While Eldar can have a considerable number of psychic dice, they don't have access to psychic defence from Psychic Hoods, and so getting Maledictions through is surprisingly easy. Gargantuans are no longer immune to psychic powers, if you're a grognard like me who remembers that being a thing.

Adepta Sororitas: You know the drill - throw mountains of Str8 AP1 at the problem. If it goes away, gravy. If it doesn't, you die horribly. Business as usual.

Astra Militarum: Lascannons with Fire On My Target/Bring It Down, Vendettas, the Paskisher, Plasma Vets if you're really stuck. Huge potential from Psychic Powers; Misfortune and FRFSRF or a charge will give a WK a really hard time, Enfeeble from Wyrdvanes can make it a lot more manageable etc.

Blood Angels: Similar to Sisters, fire lots of Meltas but you can also bring Lascannons and Stormravens with their Meltas and Missiles to mix it up a bit. You can try and torrent an already-wounded one in combat due to Str5 on the charge. Power Fists and their ilk going to Str9 on the charge can do some considerable damage. Access to Divination means you can get Misfortune and do that old trick, albeit to a lesser extent because Bolters aren't as numerous as Lasguns (on the other hand, it also works in melee, so charging in with Death Company with Astorath to give them Shred or something similar could be an amusing counter).

Chaos Space Marines: Try and rush it with Maulerfiends? Blastmaster spam? Fuck, I don't know. Sorry guys. Black Mace Daemon Prince will fuck up a Wraithknight royally but you're gonna have to land, not die, and still be able to catch it afterwards. Still, a lot of sass points if you actually do it.

Chaos Daemons: Daemonettes are the name of the game here, but most of the Greater Daemons can at least chip a few wounds off. Plaguebearers only wound on 6s, but that's better than not wounding at all. Use Malefic, summon up a bunch of Daemonettes, profit. Tarpit with Grimoire-augmented units and hope for bad Stomp rolls.

Dark Angels: Hammernators and Deathwing Knights. Rad Grenade Launchers and/or Misfortune from your Divination access followed by Bolters R Us or Plasma Talons from your Bikers/LRCs and Black Knights. Charging it with Corvus Hammers is stupid enough that it might actually work. Rad Grenades are gonna be pretty central to the plan here since they're a really nice debuff (double points if you get an Allied Enfeeble to make it T6).

Dark Eldar: Poison only wounding on 6s is a bummer, but when you're firing 120 shots a turn you can still push some through. Use those bajillion Dark Lances you have to chip away at it. Charge with Caltrop Reavers for sass points. Grotesques with Flesh Gauntlets would be hilarious if you rolled lucky.

Eldar: What the fuck are you doing reading this? Bladestorm, Warp Spiders and Wraith-guys, you're super fine.

Grey Knights: Daemonhammers are your go-to here, probably on Dreadknights for the mobility (WS5 and Sanctuary means you can even have a go at the Sword and Board Wraithknights if you feel gutsy), but your entire army works. Hammerhand up (Halberds being useful, who'd have thought!?) and Force away. Psycannons will eventually chip wounds away but probably not worth doing. Vortex of Doom if that's a thing. Soul Glaive will make them have a big sad with Hammerhand up.

Harlequins: Fog of Dreams, Laugh of Sorrows, Mask of Secrets; Armour of Misery, Dominate and Psychic Shriek from Allied dudes. Do your usual leadership shenanigans and laugh at the silly Craftworlders.

Imperial Knights: If they have the Wraithcannons, charge at the earliest opportunity. If they have the Suncannon, laugh in the Eldar player's face and make him try and charge you through cover. If they have the Sword and Board, try and stick to cover to make him strike at I1 so you can punk him before he swings and does it to you. The one time you bring a Magaera and it gets a wound through with it's Rad-Cleanser is an occasion worthy of song. Still not a real faction.

Khorne Daemonkin: Bloodthirsters are probably all you've got, although gunning for lucky 6s on Bloodletters is a reasonable plan if you can reach melee. If Skulltaker still does his Brutal Legend decapitation thing, worth a shot.

Necrons: Lychguard with Scythes (make sure you pop that Solar Staff when you get out of the Night Scythe so you don't die before you hit combat), Tesla Destructors, massed Warriors, Flayed Ones if you can get them Furious Charge from Zahndrekh, Deathmarks using their Interception thing to get Fleshbane, Wraiths, massed Warrior fire if you need to take the last wound or two off.

Orks: Klaws, Lootas, Klaws, Mega-Kannons, Klaws, Big Choppas, Klaws, Tankbustas. Charge with Bully Boyz and wreck it with Killsaws (sure, you'll lose some to the WK's swings, but considering StrD is actually less deadly for Meganobz than Str10 is, you're not going to lose a whole squad since you're WS5 and you don't need many Str9 AP2 attacks to make a WK have a sad). Shokk Attack Guns if you have loaded dice.

Space Marines: Grav Centurions, Hammernators, Lysander, Biker Chapter Master, Misfortune/Enfeeble from Tiggy/Loth, Grav-Guns on Bikes or in Pods. Grav makes you probably the second or third best army set for killing a WK after Eldar themselves.

Space Wolves: Thunderwolf Cavalry is probably the way to go. Wraithknight will struggle with Storm Shields without rolling lucky 6s and you can mess them up pretty good with massed Rending and Str10 Power Fists. Charge it with Blizzard Shield Dreadnoughts if that works for a laugh.

Tau: Monster Hunter HYMP and massed Railguns/Fusion Blasters. Storm of Fire and Fireblade with some Markerlights if you've stopped giving a shit. You really, really aren't going to struggle.

Tyranids: Anything with a lot of attacks and Rending Claws, Toxicrene for a funny and reasonably legit counter, massed Implant Attack if you feel lucky, Boneswords if you can roll 6s. Paroxysm taking it down to WS1 BS1 is amusing. Swarmlord with some Tyrant Guard to take the D for him should might do it if you can get Furious Charge or Preferred Enemy or something. Gargoyles with Blinding Venom.
 

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Rattlehead
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks!

Now we just wait for a new Chaos codex and a way to deal with things like this...
Yeah, Chaos isn't in a great place. Obliterators or Predators with Lascannons do the job but too slowly; a Crimson Slaughter Sorceror with the Divination Relic for Misfortune is good if you can get it; Noise Marines with Blastmasters again, will take too many rounds of shooting for me to say they're a 'good' counter; and Chaos melee units aren't *really* up for the job most of the time. Maulerfiends could do it, I think, especially with Lasher Tendrils taking the Wraithknight down to only two attacks, but throwing walkers at a higher Initiative and Weapon Skill opponent with a Destroyer close combat weapon is dicey at best (if it has the Wraithcannons or Suncannon then go nuts, you should be able to kill it in short order).
 

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Warsmith
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Yeah, Chaos isn't in a great place. Obliterators or Predators with Lascannons do the job but too slowly; a Crimson Slaughter Sorceror with the Divination Relic for Misfortune is good if you can get it; Noise Marines with Blastmasters again, will take too many rounds of shooting for me to say they're a 'good' counter; and Chaos melee units aren't *really* up for the job most of the time. Maulerfiends could do it, I think, especially with Lasher Tendrils taking the Wraithknight down to only two attacks, but throwing walkers at a higher Initiative and Weapon Skill opponent with a Destroyer close combat weapon is dicey at best (if it has the Wraithcannons or Suncannon then go nuts, you should be able to kill it in short order).
Last time I took one out I mobed it with Cultists and used two lords with a Powerfist to smash it. And as its not a Charitor it could not target the Lords within the 40+ Cultists that I had around it.

I think the same plan will have to be used going forward.
 

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Critique for da CriticGod
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So the Chaos plan is bubblewrap and spank.

If we can catch it.
 

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Critique for da CriticGod
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I wonder if there's a good way to telegraph that as an army dynamic?

Use cultists as the anchors and the high mobility, high impact characters/units to respond to threats?
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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Chaos Space Marines: Try and rush it with Maulerfiends? Blastmaster spam? Fuck, I don't know. Sorry guys. Black Mace Daemon Prince will fuck up a Wraithknight royally but you're gonna have to land, not die, and still be able to catch it afterwards. Still, a lot of sass points if you actually do it.
Blastmasters only able to get up to one hit per turn makes that a dicey proposition (for a whole lotof points in support of fielding that one blasmaster). I've had to pull it a few times, and it takes most of my army's shooting (4-6 blastmasters, Forgefiend, maybe 2 Havoc squads) for several turns to get the Wraithknight down to a few wounds before the Wraithknight charges in and I get a lucky 6 to wound with my Sorcerer's Force Axe to ID it. That's how it's played out multiple times, honestly. And now the ID is only doing D3 wounds, so... the rest of the army shooting for a few turns to get that unreliable result is still necessary.

Alternatively I guess you could take 15 Havocs with 12 lascannons/missile launchers, alongside 15 Chosen with meltas/plasma guns, and just let that rip. You opponent will be killing those squads as fast as they can, but...

Rad Grenades are gonna be pretty central to the plan here since they're a really nice debuff (double points if you get an Allied Enfeeble to make it T6).
Speaking of Rad Grenades, I imagine an Inquisitor could pull the same. Plus, say, a Skitarii Vanguard squad in combat, supported by some sort of thunder hammer or power fist.

Mostly just having fun thinking about stacking T debuffs, but... I suppose it does point out to me that Skitarii are a thing, now, too. Ballistarii with lascannons, etc. Radium jezzails dealing 2 AP2 wounds on 6s to wound. Etc.


Last time I took one out I mobed it with Cultists and used two lords with a Powerfist to smash it. And as its not a Charitor it could not target the Lords within the 40+ Cultists that I had around it.

I think the same plan will have to be used going forward.
One things: Wraithknights have stomp now. So not only will they clear your cultists several times faster, if they roll a 6 while the template is on top of your Lord--poof!

"Hope that your opponent doesn't roll a 6 on Stomp or the D-table" is such a shitty survivability mechanic.

Chaos Daemons: Daemonettes are the name of the game here, but most of the Greater Daemons can at least chip a few wounds off. Plaguebearers only wound on 6s, but that's better than not wounding at all. Use Malefic, summon up a bunch of Daemonettes, profit. Tarpit with Grimoire-augmented units and hope for bad Stomp rolls.
One thing I want to try more is pairing Fiends with lower-I units: charging in, say, 2 Soul Grinders and some fiends for a lot of S10 attacks at I3 before the I1 Knight gets to strike. With only WS3, the Soul Grinders are hardly reliable against a fresh 'Knight, but... still might gets some wounds through. Agreed, though: Daemonettes and Seekers are the way to go, far and away. A Lord of Change with Staff of Change is a nice amount of S8 attacks--and any MC who rolled the "Fleshbane & Armorbane" Greater Reward.


Khorne Daemonkin: Bloodthirsters are probably all you've got, although gunning for lucky 6s on Bloodletters is a reasonable plan if you can reach melee. If Skulltaker still does his Brutal Legend decapitation thing, worth a shot.
Daemons having Fearless, not Daemonic Instability, helps tarpit it, Stomps aside. Flesh Hounds scouting up can get in its grill right off the bat (can still wound on 5s if you assault). Bike squads are less than a hundred points for 2 meltas... and you can bring a lot of those bike squads. Still, no good answers here. Though every one of your small MSU units that a Wraithknight destroys, they do give you a Blood Tithe point, as some small silver lining...
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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"Bubble wrap and spank" as a general policy (Stomp 6s sniping characters with no recourse whatsoever aside) could be aided and abetted by the Helcult, honestly, for 2 large blocks of Fearless cultists for not too expensive, so that if you don't have a character nearby the 35 Cultists don't lose by a bunch, break, and get run down.
 

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Be'lakor should still spank a wraithknight, yea? If the WK is otherwise the same but with GC rules I'm not sure anything would change in that fight

Nurgle mace prince as a cheaper alternative

Aside from those... as mentioned blobs of cultists with CC characters could do it. Certain units disgorged from a land raider will do some damage. Khorne termies with fists, for example. Abaddon.

How annoying that this thing costs less than 300 points. At least they nerfed the wave serpent, and can you only take one wraithknight per detachment?
 

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Rattlehead
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Blastmasters only able to get up to one hit per turn makes that a dicey proposition (for a whole lotof points in support of fielding that one blasmaster). I've had to pull it a few times, and it takes most of my army's shooting (4-6 blastmasters, Forgefiend, maybe 2 Havoc squads) for several turns to get the Wraithknight down to a few wounds before the Wraithknight charges in and I get a lucky 6 to wound with my Sorcerer's Force Axe to ID it. That's how it's played out multiple times, honestly. And now the ID is only doing D3 wounds, so... the rest of the army shooting for a few turns to get that unreliable result is still necessary.
Why would you shoot it if you were planning on Force Weapon-ing it?

Facetiousness aside, yeah, Chaos don't really have any particularly efficient guns for dealing with it. Ideally, you'd get Symphony of Pain, Misfortune and a squad of static Noise Marines but that's a combo requiring way too much random chance to be any good. On the other hand, Chaos have some of the better melee counters with Be'lakor and the Black Mace Prince both able to take on a Wraithknight without too many issues (Be'lakor is Fleshbane and Instant Death, right? If he is he is going to wreck a Wraithknight), possibly even if it has the Str D sword.

Alternatively I guess you could take 15 Havocs with 12 lascannons/missile launchers, alongside 15 Chosen with meltas/plasma guns, and just let that rip. You opponent will be killing those squads as fast as they can, but...
Yeah, but I'm trying to make a list of units you could build into your existing lists rather than re-writing your whole army to just be good at killing Gargantuan Creatures. Any army *can* easily kill a Wraithknight if you spend 2000pts on just ways of doing that, but then everything else kills you. It's just an unfortunate quirk that Chaos don't really have an efficient plug-in unit that can do the job brilliantly (although Maulerfiends with Lasher Tendrils are looking better when I think of them).

Speaking of Rad Grenades, I imagine an Inquisitor could pull the same. Plus, say, a Skitarii Vanguard squad in combat, supported by some sort of thunder hammer or power fist.

Mostly just having fun thinking about stacking T debuffs, but... I suppose it does point out to me that Skitarii are a thing, now, too. Ballistarii with lascannons, etc. Radium jezzails dealing 2 AP2 wounds on 6s to wound. Etc.
You can do it with Inquisitors or Vanguard, but the big deal for Dark Angels is being able to toss them out from 18" away rather than needing to get into combat. Charging into a Wraithknight is a lot riskier than debuffing and then killing it from range.

One things: Wraithknights have stomp now. So not only will they clear your cultists several times faster, if they roll a 6 while the template is on top of your Lord--poof!
This is true, but it's just as likely that the Wraithknight will roll badly and only get one blast or roll a 1 or something. Stomp is painful and clears out hordes for sure, but it's easy to overestimate.

"Hope that your opponent doesn't roll a 6 on Stomp or the D-table" is such a shitty survivability mechanic.
Eh, not much shittier than 'Hope your opponent doesn't roll a 6 on their Distort Weapons/Killchoppa/Rending Implant Attack/Shard of Anaris' which Monstrous Creatures of all stripes have had to deal with for ages, or 'Hope your opponent doesn't roll a 6 on their Cannon/Stone Thrower/Heroic Killing Blow' which is all that basically every Fantasy monster has to protect itself with.

One thing I want to try more is pairing Fiends with lower-I units: charging in, say, 2 Soul Grinders and some fiends for a lot of S10 attacks at I3 before the I1 Knight gets to strike. With only WS3, the Soul Grinders are hardly reliable against a fresh 'Knight, but... still might gets some wounds through. Agreed, though: Daemonettes and Seekers are the way to go, far and away. A Lord of Change with Staff of Change is a nice amount of S8 attacks--and any MC who rolled the "Fleshbane & Armorbane" Greater Reward.
Remember that not all, and I'd dare say not even most, Knights are getting Str D on their regular attacks since they give up all kind of shooting power for it - sure, they're a mean combat dude, but 300pts of not-shooting mean in a shooting army? I'm not really sure whether you'd want that over the 'waste two tanks/monstrous creatures out of cover per turn' or 'kill all Terminators ever' loadouts on a WK.

Yep, Str10 attacks and Fleshbane attacks are definitely the way to go, I think (you could add massed Deff Dreads as a comedy option for Orks). Daemonettes are totally a good way to deal with it though.

Daemons having Fearless, not Daemonic Instability, helps tarpit it, Stomps aside. Flesh Hounds scouting up can get in its grill right off the bat (can still wound on 5s if you assault). Bike squads are less than a hundred points for 2 meltas... and you can bring a lot of those bike squads. Still, no good answers here. Though every one of your small MSU units that a Wraithknight destroys, they do give you a Blood Tithe point, as some small silver lining...
Gotta say, I'm by no means experienced with Khorne Daemonkin other than a couple of games against them as Grey Knights so I'll bow to your knowledge here. I believe something in the book has a Str D combat weapon? Other than that, just pile in with a lot of dudes and hope for Decapitating Strikes.
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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Why would you shoot it if you were planning on Force Weapon-ing it?
Well, "planning" on force weaponing it when I get 3 attacks per turn and my force axe only wounds on 6s is... a bit of an overstatement. I think these games were during 6th, too, so no need to cast Force specifically. My plan was to kill it at range, honestly.

Chaos melee-killing a gargantuan creature is better than melee-killing a Knight, honestly, on large part there being no super-explosion that might hit me with another S-D on the scatter when the Knight dies, or wipe out the horde I used to whittle you down.

(Be'lakor is Fleshbane and Instant Death, right? If he is he is going to wreck a Wraithknight),
Just Fleshbane Armorbane. Fleshbane ID would be nice, but... nah. Still, he's going to do several wounds per phase, and if it only has S10 attacks, not S-D, he has Eternal Warrior and a 4++ (to say nothing of probably having cast Invisibility on himself, too), so he'll probably survive the backlash, too.

This is true, but it's just as likely that the Wraithknight will roll badly and only get one blast or roll a 1 or something. Stomp is painful and clears out hordes for sure, but it's easy to overestimate.
Well, getting to roll for it every phase if you're relying on whittling it down with a power fist that the Knight can't touch means every single stomp every single phase at higher Initiative than your fist is going to have a chance to splatter you. It's easy to overestimate, but at the same time, my opponents have rolled some really inconvenient 6s on me at really inopportune moments with their Knights. It's another point of failure that can break your plan on a not-too-unlikely whim of the dice with no way to escape it.

I believe something in the book has a Str D combat weapon? Other than that, just pile in with a lot of dudes and hope for Decapitating Strikes.
The Lord of Skulls, yeah, so my 3x points cost unit who doesn't have stomp (so gets tarpitted easily, especially if at full hull points) could strike at I3, yeah.
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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...and the WK should be hitting Be'lakor on 5s. Unless it's WS5 but I don't think it is
Couldn't particularly recall if it was WS4 or WS5, and dunno whether that will hold true into the next book, either--but yeah, that's true of any Daemon Prince or Bloodthirster, if it's only WS4.
 

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Rattlehead
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Just Fleshbane Armorbane. Fleshbane ID would be nice, but... nah. Still, he's going to do several wounds per phase, and if it only has S10 attacks, not S-D, he has Eternal Warrior and a 4++ (to say nothing of probably having cast Invisibility on himself, too), so he'll probably survive the backlash, too.
Yeah, if it doesn't have the Wraithsword then Be'lakor will pound it.

Well, getting to roll for it every phase if you're relying on whittling it down with a power fist that the Knight can't touch means every single stomp every single phase at higher Initiative than your fist is going to have a chance to splatter you. It's easy to overestimate, but at the same time, my opponents have rolled some really inconvenient 6s on me at really inopportune moments with their Knights. It's another point of failure that can break your plan on a not-too-unlikely whim of the dice with no way to escape it.
Stomps aren't at higher Initiative than the Fist, since they're always done at I1, but fair point made.

The Lord of Skulls, yeah, so my 3x points cost unit who doesn't have stomp (so gets tarpitted easily, especially if at full hull points) could strike at I3, yeah.
Oh, I thought there was one of the relic axes or one of the Bloodthirsters had a Str D axe but never mind.
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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Stomps aren't at higher Initiative than the Fist, since they're always done at I1, but fair point made.
Ah? Right, misremembered it at I2, rather than I1.

Oh, I thought there was one of the relic axes or one of the Bloodthirsters had a Str D axe but never mind.
One of the Bloodthirsters does have a D axe, actually, you're right--I actually kinda forgot about him--just he strikes at I1 with it, so people have mostly glanced it over and dismissed it. There are too many ways to kill a W5 T6 MC before/as he gets to strike at I1, especially among the specific targets you'd want to level a S-D axe against.
 

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Rattlehead
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Ah, that'll be the fella. He'll wreck a non-Sword and Board Wraithknight, but since that seems to be the one causing concern it's no great help. Hrrm.

EDIT: N'aww, thanks for the rep :3
 
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