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To be honest, punching the other player in the face, or otherwise verbally/pyshically assaulting them, normally necessitates Teclis dissapearing from the table, followed by the rest of the HE army.

FLAWLESS VICTORY.
 

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Thats certainly a very powerful uni, as WoC player is going to have a field day with that, drop some hellcannon on the unit and finish it off with a unit of Tzeentch chosen lead by a Tzeentch BSB with 3+ wardsave and hoping for +1T and +1A or wardsave. Thats or a unit of 20 Tzeentch warriors with HW+SH lead by my sorcerer with sword of anti heroes (so thats 5 S7 attacks).
You're taking units of 20 in a competitive list, and expect to beat a Teclis list?

Weren't you trying to put across how bad MY army was?

Meanwhile the sorcerer has been using dwellers on the rest of the HW army or stealing the augment spell to boost the Tzeentch warriors/chosen.
I'm sure you'll find a use for the Lore of Metal/Death somewhere in your Army against a 5+ Highest infantry armour save, which he'll scroll of hoeth, while you get through the average 7 Dispel Dice with a +4. The main unit is immune to Magic, so no Dwellers, Pit of Shades or Purple Sun, no Doom and Darkness, no Caress of Lanish/Fate of Bjuna, no debuffs/maluses from magic whatsoever - so they might as well go full attack, leaving Metal or Death as the stand out choice against WoC.



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stone of spite explosions aren't magical.
They're just explosions. His equipment just goes poof.

Really, besides wading down field against Dweller spam, that's about all beasts have.
Its a bound spell... and banner of the world dragon ignores the affects of all spells.
Just because its AOE and doesnt directly cause wounds doesnt get round the stupid banner.

The only way that a spell of any sort can cause damage to a unit with the banner of the world dragon is if its some sort of buff on another unit.


TBH I agree with Lord Sven... Teclis is too broken to be taken, and if he is then the whole game just focusses on him. My HE army might be relagated toa cupboard but Teclis was there long before... I used him once or twice then found my conscience.
 

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You're taking units of 20 in a competitive list, and expect to beat a Teclis list?

Weren't you trying to put across how bad MY army was?

My unit of 19 Tzeentch warriors comes in at 374pts, your unit of trolls comes in at 1035pts, clearly these are exactly the same thing :shok: And yes I do expect to beat Teclis and have every time I have played him.

I'm sure you'll find a use for the Lore of Metal/Death somewhere in your Army against a 5+ Highest infantry armour save, which he'll scroll of hoeth, while you get through the average 7 Dispel Dice with a +4. The main unit is immune to Magic, so no Dwellers, Pit of Shades or Purple Sun, no Doom and Darkness, no Caress of Lanish/Fate of Bjuna, no debuffs/maluses from magic whatsoever - so they might as well go full attack, leaving Metal or Death as the stand out choice against WoC.
Strange how no one uses metal on Teclis, then again people I play don't tailor lists (bar one guy ), still I have had to fight against HE before and actually you make use of metal. Final transmutation, transmutation of lead, glittering robe, enchanted blades of abian.

Your right he can stop a magic phase, use his scroll of Hoeth on his own spell (which I used 3rd eye on) which I just relearn next magic phase anyways. Like I said I will happily use his own magic against the rest of his army while dropping hellcannons on his biggest unit. Once you reach combat his BSB is not a problem to deal with, T3 and no next to no armour.

Spear are not the best bunker for Teclis, if you want a proper bunker for him then it has to be either PG or WL, even with ASF spearmen are not a problem for a WS5 S4 T4 3/5+ save unit, you seriously why do chaos warriors even need to debuff such a unit, you have two guys which can cause any real damage, the unit itself is going to struggle to do any real damage (still only strength 3).
 

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Teclis chooses his Lore before the game starts so he will always have the right Lore against you. Perhaps the Teclis players you're playing against simply aren't very good? Teclis has +5 to dispel with the Extra dice as well. It's tough to get past him.
 

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You choose your lore in the army list, I have played against a few people who used lore of metal on him which is a real pain but as I said you can still use it to your advantage. My sorcerers also have a +5 to cast.
 

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No. TECLIS CAN CHOOSE WHICH LORE BEFORE THE GAME STARTS.

I'm willing to say that bar bad luck on your opponents behalf, Warriors of Chaos in all of it's guises againsts Teclis (with perhaps the exception of Wulfrik attempting to murder him using Tongues - but that's tailoring, and Wulfrik is fairly shit even for a fighty hero of the calibre WoC can put out, so not advisable for an all comers list).

20 Warriors of Chaos loses a rank bonus with a single wound suffered.

As to how weak trolls are - I've got 2200pts gone into making that unit near untouchable for an all comers competetive meta game. Teclis fucks that up, by being able to choose his Lore before the game rather than in the Army List, and IF'ing anything.

As said, WoC have the weakest match up against Teclis -

Their base Elite units have the best armour save for Cavalry and Infantry available - meaning metal rapes, and also, each turn, your opponent chooses one of your unit, and then proceeds to remove, in your case, 6-7 models.

The Horde units are T3 with no low/no armour against a target with Reroll to hits, fight in multiple ranks (so you're typically up against 4-5 ranks of models fighting you), and capable of being buffed far more efficiently than you can nerf them.

Against Trolls, he can just bring out the Lore of Fire, capable of slapping out a Firestorm, or Burning Head. With MSU, you get less effectiveness from the Warshrines 4+ Ward or the MR2 from Collar of Khorne, while Horde means He can choose Death instead of Purple Sun you're I1-2 Units (although the rest of the lore is near useless).

If you try to counter spell him, he has the Banner of World Dragon, a Scroll of Hoeth which has a chance of stopping you from casting it again, (rendering Third Eye near useless), while he has a 5+ to dispel - it's easier to dispel than it is to cast, as you can choose what's useful and what's not. Not to mention the average 6-7 Dispel Dice average, AND an Annulian Crystal to reduce your average casting dice to 6 and boost his dispel dice to 7-8.

And I think you're discounting a Spear Bunker too easily. With Metal, Teclis can Rust the unit, with Death he can reduce your toughness/strength (with IF as well possibly), and then stack on Fate of Bjuna on your caster. Then factor in that you're testing on a Ld8 against the possibility of Fear causing units potentially reducing your WS1.

So - all that considered - you'd be up against 5 ranks of reroll to hit S3 against WS1 S3 T3 infantry.

Add in the fact that they're cheap as fuck.

No offence, mate, but have you ever played ANYTHING remotely competitive. I'm talking about a copy paste list off the internet used in a GW Store/LGS, but something along the lines of Ardboyz?



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You choose your lore in the army list, I have played against a few people who used lore of metal on him which is a real pain but as I said you can still use it to your advantage. My sorcerers also have a +5 to cast.
As I said, Teclis chooses his Lore before the Game, not in the list. your Casting is largely irrelevant, with his +D3 Dispel dice and +5 on his dispels he forces you to dump extra dice into casting your spells to get them off. He's a bargain for what he does. Like I say your High elf players might just be terrible, Teclis can act as a crutch for a bad player to dig himself out of a hole.
 

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Right, here's the 1 warning this thread is going to receive:
- keep it adult
- keep it on topic

We want to hear about successful strategies for beating Teclis, even ways that HE players try to counter these anti-teclis strategies... but bickering about who has the better army is unhelpful, and to be honest fucking boring.

T/S
 

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After speaking with Tim/steve here are all the things I can think off to deal with Teclis.

As a WoC player if you dealing with the immune to magic horde of spearmen you can:

1) Use chariots, even a single chariot ramming into can cause a lot of pain while directing a hell of a lot of attacks at him, 4 WS5 S5 (6 attacks with MoK) as well as your two steads, if you concerned with a character like Caradryan using the move through rule then you simply combo charge with a unit of hounds. If you not ( I wouldn't be) then its stilll T5, 3+ save 4 wounds on average he will only wound it 1.25 times before the D3 so really with only S3 attacks slapping into it unless the opponent is lucky you should be around for another round. MoN could also be handy so he is only hitting you on a 4+.

2) Warshrine -basically the same idea as a chariot expect its T6. 4+ save and a 4+ wardsave, its bashing out 5 WS5 S4 attacks.

3) Chaos knight strike force - 5 chaos knights are on 200pts so if they die yet again but manage to kill teclis then its no lose, with his magic phase gone its well worth the effort, with the hight armour save and bucket loads of attacks they should have a couple of turns in them.

4) hellcannon - Need I say more really, strength 10 rocklobber, if the unit only has a BSB in it then it can be worth the risk of using it as a combat monster, this way you can aim its damage directly at teclis. 5 WS4 S5 attacks + D6 stomp attacks is very nasty and you may well be able to take down teclis and the BSB leaving this rather unit of elves open to the more dangerous things.

Something to keep in mind when play against people who use these massive death stars, with so many points invested in a single unit you can out deploy and maneuver them, Chaos hounds and a brilliant unit for this. Usually I use 2-3 units of chaos hounds in 2400pts and these have so many roles they are one of the best units for 30pts. Tim/steve asked me how you actually get you elite unit of doom into the deathstar of point retention. Hounds of course, you use them to block movement of his support units and position them so if he decided to overrun he will out of position or you can use these to protect flanks from counter charges. If you get the angel right he will have to reform giving you another turn to work your magic on the unit.

I know people mentioned Lore of metal but I would be far more concerned if he had lore of shadow and was casting mind razor on that unit of spearmen, it would just negate all the advantage a unit of chaos warriors has over spearmen and he would more than likely being causing more wounds than I had models. Also Pit of shades caste after the base spell really cause issue for any unit, chaos warriors can be down to I2, no save, no wardsave, instant death, that is far more concerning that shearing doom or -1 save.

Aside the above methods assuming he is a unit with banner of world dragon (at the end of the day I have seen a lot of HE lists that won't take a BSB and Teclis in games under 2.5k) you have the more obvious methods of dealing with him, lore of death sniping, throwing big fireball at his unit, you can use things like Lore of slaanesh combined with fire for good effect (flame cage + titillating delusions). curse of the leaper (which could be rather fun combined with a lore of death spell). You go down the route of Hellcannon + Doom and dark or Pandemonium to just try and panic them out of range of magic (depending on turn). Pandemonium also has the added bonus of not only stripping about the leadership of all characters in the list but knocking off powerdice in the next phase, its not the best spell since sliced spread but it has uses.
 

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I'm not sold on the fact that he's immune to the stone of spite. But, lets say he is in the common set up of 'world dragon banner of not even trying'.

An option Beastmen have is throw as many razorgors as we can at him and allocate all attacks. Hopefully, on 2 sides to hurt him more.
Granted HE ASF/re-roll means these guys most likely won't live to hit, but it's a chance and not only that, it means that my units are running down field helter-skelter to get into combat if he decides to nuke these guys.

aaaaaaand that's about it.

Seeing we have no shooting.
Ambush is not seriously competitive, and if the ambushing unit landed behind him, they would turn and Dwellers the unit, then break them in panic...I'm at a loss
 

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I'm not sold on the fact that he's immune to the stone of spite. But, lets say he is in the common set up of 'world dragon banner of not even trying'.
Sadly he is immune to it under Banner of the World Dragon. But that is a 2 edged sword that, it does mean no buffing to the unit at all. No Mindrazor , no Skin to Stone etc. Or of course he could just dispel the Stone of Spite.

Teclis is a tricky little bugger, we don't tend to play very high value games so no World Dragon so my solution is usually Damsel + Power Scroll + Dwellers , he's only S2.
 

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Well I mentioned this tactic to itsonlyme earlier and said it was so hard to do that I wouldn't post it here... but I thought I may as well regardless.

Best way my ogres have of beating Teclis and his unit of death (probably the same for beastmen and a few others) is getting simaltaneous flank charges.

Charge both flanks, or a flank and a rear and the unit is toast: If your in both flanks you'll be looking at ~10 attacks from spearmen/champ and probably another 3 from Caradryan (or similar hero), while you pump out all your normal attacks and have a huge SCR bonus- you'll win every round and the HEs cant reform to bring their spears to bear... but they'll never break at Ld10 with a BSB reroll. You'll have to kill the whole unit (doen't take too long for my ogres.. other armies would struggle though).

I assume that Teclis would count as being in combat if his unit is engaged... not too sure on that though.

Problem is this tactic has some major flaws- its very hard to manouver into both flanks, especially with Teclis blasting you with spells, and doubly especially since a clever HE player would just turn to face 1 and let the other hit the rear... then he's bringing his entire unit's attacks to bear. You also have to be careful of being flanked yourself as you'll have to leave yourself wide open to get this to work.
This is where a VC player with a couple units of zombies can be laughing... but you'll have to try to outmagic Teclis to really get it working (and we all know how hard that is).


Alternatively you could try what I often do with my WE- send in a small sacrificial typoe unit to the deathstar's flank: I normally charge with wardancers (often with a hero wardancer) or dryads- I'm not looking to win the fight, just to have a shot at some of the the HE characters (caradyan losing to my noble wardancer is quite common).
All you are really looking to do is to slow up the HEs- if your little unit can stay in the fight (by winning or not breaking) then the HEs cant move for a turn, while if you break you're hoping the HE player pursues and puts himself out of position.

Obviously I do this with WE, so I'm pincusushioning HEs the whole time, but getting an extra turn to fire at other units or a couple extra turns for baiting the deathstar out of position is always very useful (and 5-10 extra dead spearmen isnt a bad start at knobbling the unit).
 

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Yeah thats a pretty good idea however you are going to need free units to actually do it, Yhetee's with M7 and -1 to hit would be very good at this, two units of 8 bulls would be very nice just for the 8 impact hits. OK will struggle the most but they are well overdue for a new book.
 

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You'll never see yhetees in an 8th ed OK army... not a decent one anyway. They're 30pts more then bulls (almost double) for +1S, +1M -1 to hit and strider. On the other hand bulls have AP, have impact hits, can have command and can be buffed...
I also wish impact hits were that good, but you only get impacts from the front rank, but a 2*4 unit of bulls would give you 4 S5 impacts, which is nice, but not game changing.

Its incredibly hard to get into both flanks on the same turn... if you can do it then you'll beat almost anything, but its should be a passive focus rather then outright tactic: if you see the opportunity to manage it go for it, but starting the game with it as your main plan will only lead to disappointment.
If you were planning on trying something like this its probably easier to use something like chariots or blocks of fast but cheap rubbish (eg 10 chaos warhounds) while you manouver a ranked unit to replace/join them and win the fight.

I think I could manage it with my dryads for WE much more easily then with ogres, but then if Im playing WE Im not that scared of HE...
 

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Well its been ages since I played against OK and have no idea on the points cost, I just remember they had magical attacks and -1 to hit, also I said two units of 8 so thats 4 impact hits per unit (which is what I meant :p).

Agreed its very hard to pull off a combo charge like that but I think its easier when you are up against a unit that has invested half the armies points into it, its not like HE have masses of chaff they can deploy like other armies (even eagles are limited either via a comp or normal army selection to a degree).

I would have thought WE would be more scare by HE due to the lack of anything with static combat res and general lack of armour combined with low toughness.
 

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My We love to play against HE, and dont mind Teclis too much. I play MSU and have lots and lots of shooting, so I'm killing 5-15 spearmen off Teclis's unit each turn with shooting alone and Teclis's magic isn't doing much to me because I have no single big units for him to target... though he can start doing real damage if he takes something like lore of fire.

MSU is pretty effective against Teclis- it means that while he might be able to cast lots of spells each one can't affect that many models. Its better for him if he is buffing his own units... but then if the HE player is too used to just runnign a world dragon block he wont normally thinnk to just kick the BSB to another unit and have Teclis buff his own unit.
 

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...This is where a VC player with a couple units of zombies can be laughing... but you'll have to try to outmagic Teclis to really get it working (and we all know how hard that is).
As a VC player, I can promise you that zombies are utterly out of the question... An intelligent player will simply throw every single attack possible at those zombies since their T2 means almost everything needs at worst a 3+ to wound.
Hell, skaven slaves outfight zombies 99.9% of the time! (which is sad to say the least - they should really be equals.)

Throwing zombies into a combat, even in the flank as supporters is simply handing easy CR to your opponent. (unless he's either a new player, has never once played against VC's, or is just a massive idiot!)

VC's best hope is;
a) a ghoul sling-shot unit w/wight king. Give him an extra hand weapon, other trickster's shard & nightshroud. Even caradryan fears that! Plus, those ghouls shred most high elf units short of PG or 3+/2+ stuff.

b) 5-6 dire wolves marched right in front of the unit & angled so that an over-run would be a very bad idea. It at least forces the high elf player to use-up his movment to re-form the unit and stops him charging.
Handy if Teclis is in a combat-centric unit like PG's or SM's, or even a non-world dragon banner'd spear unit, since you can keep him roughly in one place for a few turns. (gives you time to set-up flank/rear charges on his unit)

c) Black Coach. once it's ethereal, the only unit it really fears is one w/amulet of light. HE's almost never use fire or metal magic, so getting unit-wide magical attacks isn't that likely... (and if the unit has the world dragon banner, only the amulet of light can help it!)
it's 3+/4++ & T6 is just plain mean...


Overall though, Teclis is pretty much an auto-lose senario for VC's since he counters their biggest need...
Cheers!
 
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