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Well That Was Unexpected
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hey everyone.

Now, for a guy who has a special character tactica in his signature this is slightly embarrasing, but how the heck are you supposed to use Abaddon?

I'm working on eventually getting a 2000pt army (I have 1500 worth of models) and I want Abaddon to be the centre piece either as himself or a counts as warlord. But how the heck can you use him lol?

He is 275 points and there is no way I'm using a Land Raider as its an extra 220pts and makes the list rely on a deathstar set-up. So this only leaves realistically the option of deepstriking him with x3-4 Terminator buddies (which are already in my 1500 list anyway). I'm running a Daemon Prince at 1000/1500 so removing that and adding Abaddon minimises the extra points cost to only 100 more and as I said I run the 3 Terminators anyway at both levels.

So is he viable? Would anybody care to share experiences using Abaddon?

Also just a heads up, if you want to contribute by saying he sucks I can't stop you, but I'm just trying to figure a way to make the model work. I already kind of know that x2 Daemon Princes would be better and almost as expensive.
 

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Eastern Potent
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Well, To be honest, I know you dont want to run the raider, but it is the only surefire way to make his points.

If you footslog him, he will just get avoided and blown to pieces.

If you DS him, you could lose him into a piece of terrain, or enemy, no more Abaddon. Or there is also the fact you deepstrike into what is probably rabid fire range, and every heavy weapon, assualt, melta, and shell the enemy has is going into him and his buddies.
Not conducive for long life.
 

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Well That Was Unexpected
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Discussion Starter #3
Well, To be honest, I know you dont want to run the raider, but it is the only surefire way to make his points.
Good point but I don't think you need models to 'make back their points worth' if they contribute to winning the game and aiding the effectiveness of other units. Maybe make the list around him so that his DSing contributes to the overall strategy of the army?

Also I wouldn't say that you just deepstrike him into the middle of the enemy like a regular Termicide, maybe DS him onto a unit with an Icon to aid the taking of a table quarter or side?

I can understand the Land Raider argument, but that makes the model 495pts by itself and is too expensive even for 2500ptgames IMO.
 

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Eastern Potent
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I get the points back arguement, thats the view I hold. however, You want him to do SOMETHING, and the landraider is the best way to ensure it. Also, dont look at the land raider as just means of getting him from Point A to point B. It is still a deadly tank, and powerful enough to cause big dents on it's own.

The Icon Idea isnt bad however.
 

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Abaddon isn't as much of a one hit wonder as you may think.

You want to avoid the LR transport? I think you're (from a DE player view) missing out on one hell of a trick here.

Place him and 4 cheapo terminator mates (just MoK would do) in a landraider and deploy on one flank.
This costs just over 600 points, and out of 2.5k, you're still left with 1900ish.

Automatically, your opponent will do 1 of 2 things. Ignore/avoid abaddon OR focus on destroying him. That means getting through a LR and 4 termies first.
Both options give you the advantage of either having your opponent head down that flank, or avoiding it entirely.
Thus allowing you control of his deployment/early movement.

Most players (statistically) will favour the right hand side of the board. This it will be his stronger flank. Just bare this inmind when deciding what flank to place Abaddon on.

When the opponent shifts to or away your advance with Abaddon, you can counteract accordingly.
Fast units of KBs in Rhinos would be great at harrying and placing high pressure on his exposed flank.

600 points out of 2500 to control how your opponent moves and sets up isn't a high cost at all.
 

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Well That Was Unexpected
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Discussion Starter #6
I get the points back arguement, thats the view I hold. however, You want him to do SOMETHING, and the landraider is the best way to ensure it. Also, dont look at the land raider as just means of getting him from Point A to point B. It is still a deadly tank, and powerful enough to cause big dents on it's own.

The Icon Idea isnt bad however.
Abaddon isn't as much of a one hit wonder as you may think.

You want to avoid the LR transport? I think you're (from a DE player view) missing out on one hell of a trick here.

Place him and 4 cheapo terminator mates (just MoK would do) in a landraider and deploy on one flank.
This costs just over 600 points, and out of 2.5k, you're still left with 1900ish.

Automatically, your opponent will do 1 of 2 things. Ignore/avoid abaddon OR focus on destroying him. That means getting through a LR and 4 termies first.
Both options give you the advantage of either having your opponent head down that flank, or avoiding it entirely.
Thus allowing you control of his deployment/early movement.

Most players (statistically) will favour the right hand side of the board. This it will be his stronger flank. Just bare this inmind when deciding what flank to place Abaddon on.

When the opponent shifts to or away your advance with Abaddon, you can counteract accordingly.
Fast units of KBs in Rhinos would be great at harrying and placing high pressure on his exposed flank.

600 points out of 2500 to control how your opponent moves and sets up isn't a high cost at all.
Ok folks I think we are actually getting somewhere here.

Right, one problem is its at 2000pt level I'm discussing at 2500 its alot easier IMO to use him.

I think maybe using him with a scoring unit and putting him in a LR might be viable; as you say that unit basically is 1/3 of the deployment zone covered. Also because Abaddon has an icon, the termicide unit and lesser daemons I use could always deepstrike onto him and his table side if he is running into trouble.

Only trouble is is that I use vanilla marines and I hate losing that 2nd special weapon when reducing the squad to 9.
 

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Eastern Potent
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hmm..Well I wouldnt recommend running him in a vanilla squad, because he belongs in an assault, and other units can assault better then 'nilla marines.
 

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Use my idea, but at 2k, put him with KBs.

This makes the unit scoring and as one of probably 3-4 scoring units in your army, a threat he MUST deal with, or focus EVERYTHING on the other scoring units.

It's all about control. Control what he shoots at, control where he moves. Game is yours.
 

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i honestly wouldnt use him unless its an apoc game or a friendly where he wouldnt count against points (like if hes going against calgar/etc)

however i have seen some1 run him in a very interesting 2k list, it was 40 PMs (champs & gear) with rhinos, abaddon & like 7 MoN termies DSing. he did fairly well but it IS a 1 shot style of play. not sure if your interested in that.
 

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I totally agree w/ Orochi. Special characters have many advantages besides throwing them into the heat of an assault. They give your opponent something extra to think about, be it in deployment, movement, shooting &/or assaulting. Also, the way you control your special character(s) during the game will at most times pull your opponent's focus away from some of your seemingly less dangerous units. This will allow your troops to better capture objectives or leave one of their units exposed in the open where your heavy support(s) can mow them down while they attempt to assault your special character.

Although I'm not a Chaos player, but I can easily see the Sanguinor from BA being used the same way. Points-wise they both cost the same but the benefit of Abaddon over the golden boy is that he's independent, so you can protect him by a retinue or Terminator bodyguards.

Special characters, while being center-piece models in your army shouldn't be considered as almighty and expected/relied on to win you the game. Their presence usually allows your regular units to do their job better....

It'll take a really good round of shooting to take out Abaddon, and that's considering your opponent focusing all on him. So think about the freedom your other units will have during this time.... and position wisely.
 

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I don't use Abaddon due to the fact I don't play that Legion, but a friend of mine does.
His tactic is to put Abaddon in a squad of MoT terminators and deep-strike them, often with a TzeentchTerminator Sorcerer.
Points-heavy, but it works pretty well. People end up concentrating inordinate amounts of fire on that bunch, and often some survive.
 

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Well That Was Unexpected
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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
Here what I'll do is post my current 1500pt list and see if he can be used successfully to aid the army with its jump to 2000pts. Now just to let you all know, winning all the time isn't important, but losing all the time isn't going to be fun either. If I could end up with a list that could be taken to a tournament and have a chance, with some good tactics and a little luck to be placed decently, if not necessarily 1st.

My current army is usually something like this:

HQ

Daemon Prince, Wings, MOT, Warptime, 175pts


ELITES


5 CSM Terminators, Champion, x1 Chainfist, IOCG, x3 Combi-Plasmas, x1 Combi-Melta, x1 Reaper Autocannon, 230pts

CSM Dreadnought, Twin-Linked Lascannon, CCW + Heavy Flamer, EA, 130pts


TROOPS

10 CSM, Champion, Powerfist, Combi-Flamer, IOCG, x2 Meltaguns, Rhino, Combi-Plasma, 275pts

10 CSM, Champion, Powerfist, IOCG, x1 Plasma Gun, x1 Heavy Bolter, Rhino, Havoc Launcher, 275pts

10 Lesser Daemons, 130pts


HEAVY SUPPORT

CSM Predator, Autocannon, Lascannon Sponsons, Havoc Launcher, 145pts

CSM Vindicator, Daemonic Possession, 145pts


So I suppose, Abaddon and a Land Raider could be added (obviously replacing the Daemon Prince) for 320pts (after removing DP cost), leaving me 180pts to spend elsewhere. Or I could replace the Champion Terminator, with the Chainfist/Combi-Melta and either place that squad in a Land Raider or still deepstrike them and I'd save slightly more points.

Any ideas?
 

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I would advise against Deepstriking him for several reasons:

-Doesn't restrict opponents deployment/movement
-Relies on Icons to land safely. Opponent can prevent icons from getting close if he has enough AT fire.
-No guarantee he will enter when you need him. Turn 2 Icons might not be close enough, turn 4/5 icons might be dead, or in useless positions.
-Can't assault the turn he drops, giving your opponent a full turn to counter him.

His unit will make up around 1/6 of your list at 2k points at minimum, and deepstriking that large a unit all in one clump could be disasterous. Even if they land safely, you can't guarantee they'll be anywhere useful.
 

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The fact which I really don't like about Abbadon, is that he carries a daemon weapon. Sure it gives him +d6 attacks, but on the other hand gives you a 1 in 6 chance of not attacking at all. Which means on the charge you'll loose 5 strength 8 attacks. This is for a 275 pts model unacceptable. If I have such a model I am going to charge tough units with him, and if he fails completely this means my whole unit can be wiped out...
 

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There is one use for abbadon which has not been discussed yet but has strong potential. So far everyone has discussed abbadons ability so smash face and he's very good at it, so naturally everyone has offered ways to get him into your opponents lines and wreak havok.

Abbadon is a great threat, the moment people see his potential they would immediately prioritise him if he gets anywhere near them. The discussion thus far has mostly been to either run him in a land raider and charge in, DS in and weather the return fire or use him to waste firepower on a far flank. However the question is, why do we want him to be in the middle of their lines?

One option i've seen is to attach abbadon to a unit of thousand sons and sit on a home objective. As long as you de mech your opponent appropriately you should have no troubles holding the objective. No marine would want to get near that thing due to AP3 bolter fire, the TS champ who could have winds of chaos which denys cover and armor saves, effectively stopping any footslopping scoring marine getting close. But abbadon scares away anyone trying to contest and many dedicated cc units since abbadon covers the TS weakness of poor cc ability. Because it would take a great effort to get through abbadon and a unit of TS in cc since the everyone has a 4++ invun and abbadon is a monster.

This can translate into your army by having him accompany one of your standard csm units, but if you're moving to 2000pts try to find a way to get a unit of thousand sons in either by removing a few toys from other units (so your 2000 pt army could be your 1500 pt army + abbadon + a TS unit - a few upgrades to other units or your 1500pt army - a csm unit + abbadon + TS unit + other stuff)

So if you're playing objectives, which is 2/3 of the time, get him to sit back, relax and scare the opponent from getting near. If it's kill points, then you have the choice to attach him to your terminators if you want. Either way abbadon can be used very effectively defensively and could be used to take the pressure off the rear of your army such that the rest can push forward with more aggression.


Either way, just play a few matches and see how it goes.
 

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One option i've seen is to attach abbadon to a unit of thousand sons and sit on a home objective. As long as you de mech your opponent appropriately you should have no troubles holding the objective. No marine would want to get near that thing due to AP3 bolter fire, the TS champ who could have winds of chaos which denys cover and armor saves, effectively stopping any footslopping scoring marine getting close. But abbadon scares away anyone trying to contest and many dedicated cc units since abbadon covers the TS weakness of poor cc ability. Because it would take a great effort to get through abbadon and a unit of TS in cc since the everyone has a 4++ invun and abbadon is a monster.
It's a good idea, but that's a hell of a lot of points just sitting there looking scary!

You risk not supporting the units you have attacking the enemy objective/s - if he's in the mix in the opponents half of the table, he's much harder to ignore.
 

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Well That Was Unexpected
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Discussion Starter #17
Basically, I spent an awful long time trying to argue that Abaddon doesn't smack himself with his Daemon Weapon according to the rules written in his profile. That debate can be found here : http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=75395

Long story short, I largely failed (even though I still think I'm right).

So your paying 275pts for a character that potentially does nothing 1/6 of the time, and lets face it, when you don't want to roll a 1, you tend to never roll anything but 1 lol.

Therefore Abaddon is competitively unusable. It's really that simple. If he can enter combat with the risk of doing nothing, and worse, actually hurting himself then he is useless.

A Daemon Prince gives you most of the same stats, except for 3 less Strength, but it can get Wings and an amazing psychic power (Warptime) for 100 odd points cheaper.

In his current form, there really is no use for Abaddon. That is actually really sad when you think about it.
 

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Therefore Abaddon is competitively unusable. It's really that simple. If he can enter combat with the risk of doing nothing, and worse, actually hurting himself then he is useless.
So he's just like a normal Chaos Lord with a Deamon Weapon? The Deamon Weapon rules were poorly thought out, that is the bottom line.
 

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Basically, I spent an awful long time trying to argue that Abaddon doesn't smack himself with his Daemon Weapon according to the rules written in his profile. That debate can be found here : http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=75395

Long story short, I largely failed (even though I still think I'm right).

So your paying 275pts for a character that potentially does nothing 1/6 of the time, and lets face it, when you don't want to roll a 1, you tend to never roll anything but 1 lol.

Therefore Abaddon is competitively unusable. It's really that simple. If he can enter combat with the risk of doing nothing, and worse, actually hurting himself then he is useless.

A Daemon Prince gives you most of the same stats, except for 3 less Strength, but it can get Wings and an amazing psychic power (Warptime) for 100 odd points cheaper.

In his current form, there really is no use for Abaddon. That is actually really sad when you think about it.


Completely unusable?!
:laugh::laugh::laugh:
Sorry, but I think not.
Even though in this pissant edition he does have a chance of not being able to attack, it's a slight chance, realistically speaking.
I've seen him tear up to much stuff to buy into the "unusable" crap.
 

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He is currently being used to hold down papers.

Sometimes he can't even do this job correctly.
 
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