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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Every once in a while I get a hair brained idea that I just need to play with a little. This is one of those times.

Now other than random charge ranges (which I honestly don't mind much) and Overwatch (which I also don't mind that much as a concept of, but we're not going into that here) there have been some I've seen brought up before that'd I think could be expanded and changed.

The first is the Weapon Skill chart. Frankly it's a bit sad and really limited and doesn't do much to really support the lore behind some of these really great melee fighter characters. So I tweaked it:



So yes, it goes from hitting on 2+ to hitting on 6+ Now as you can see, a number of these entries have two numbers. The second number is a re-roll value. Essentially the differences in skill are high enough between the combatants that the more skilled combatant can essentially "recover" their attack when it fails against their target and turn even a miss into a deadly strike. You'll note that it doesn't get any worse than a 6+ however though as there are limits to how punishing you can be to the lower WS models (no one wants to be hitting on a 6+ and then rolling the hits to see if they go through on a 6+ after all) so it does decrease how many attacks models will push through when attacking higher WS models, it doesn't outright put them into a position where they can't hit.

The second change I have is two fold, the first has to do with Sweeping Advances. Now the leadership check works the same, as does the initiative test, but the difference is what happens if the fleeing unit is caught: instead of being destroyed (because who hasn't seen a unit of twenty models turn into a puff of smoke) the pursuing unit(s) get to make a bonus attack with every model getting 1 attack using the same weapons, statlines, ect. They still need to roll to hit and wound and the fleeing unit still gets any saves they'd normally get. But this is where the second part comes in: if this attack destroys the fleeing unit then the pursuing unit counts has having Overrun the fleeing unit. Otherwise the fleeing unit escapes and falls back as normal.

When a unit Overruns another unit (either by completely destroying a unit completely in the assault phase, or by finishing off a fleeing unit completely) the controlling player can choose to try to have them then consolidate into an enemy unit as if they were charging. All charge reactions occur as normal, as do all Overwatch restrictions, and the unit still has to roll to try and make the charge. If successful then continue the Assault phase as normal as if it was a new combat. A unit can only Overrun once per assault phase though.

Additionally units who were charged and wipe out an enemy unit may Overrun even though it is not their controlling player's turn. This means that if a Squad of Space Marines is charged by Genestealers, and wins combat and successfully Overruns the Genestealers they can then make a charge move against a nearby unit of Termagaunts if their controlling player wishes.

Lastly, Overrun is not triggered by destroying a unit through Overwatch.

So thoughts, input, angry letters about how this should never be implemented in a game ever?
 

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I like the idea of units which are caught not instantly being destroyed. It's always embarrassing for those involved when you watch a lone sergeant cut down a unit of 20 fleeing orks.

However, since the unit is running away, surely they shouldn't be able to fight back as well (if you are running away as fast as you can, it's hard to parry a sword-thrust). Perhaps the fleeing unit gets reduced to WS 1 for the purpose of hitting it with the additional attacks.

Also, only getting 1 bonus attack seems a bit...odd. It implies that a unit of Khorne Bezerkers are just as eager to cut down a fleeing unit as a unit of Tau Fire Warriors. Perhaps say they get 1/2 their base attacks (rounding down), just to represent that some units are still fundamentally CC units and some aren't.

Other than that, it looks pretty solid. I'd use it, that's for sure!
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Stealing my notes/updates from another forum where I posted the idea:

So in an attempt to curb things and make them more streamlined and generally more balanced here is the 3rd revision of the WS chart (I realized I made an error for the WS section vs WS2 and had to fix that so this version now exists):


Yes, the re-rolls stayed, but now they only exist for models who are triple another model's WS or better (except WS1, they got a small reprieve from WS 3 and 4 and don't suffer that until WS5 hits them). WS4 gets hit by it because the rare WS10 model should be pounding WS4 models more effectively than they do. Plus the Bloodthirster deserves to be scarier to Marines (even if the models don't feel fear the players should fear that model a bit more than they do :p).

Sweeping Advance:
If a unit loses combat and breaks the unit that won combat may choose to pursue the fleeing unit. If the pursuing unit catches the fleeing unit the pursuing unit gains a free round of attacks for all of the models that were engaged in combat, that are resolved as if it was a normal round of combat. If the fleeing unit is not destroyed by this round of combat the two units remain locked in combat, otherwise the pursuing unit consolidates as normal.
As for Overrun, how about this:
If a unit successfully kills a unit it charges during the assault phase in the fight sub-phase or by Sweeping Advance on the turn that it charges it counts as having Overrun the charged unit and may make a D6+3" consolidation move that may bring it into contact with an enemy unit. If the enemy unit has not Overwatched, and is not locked in combat it may do so as normal. If the Overrunning unit has models remaining after resolving the Overwatch then the two units count as being locked in combat and will continue combat in the following Assault Phase.
 

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I really like this idea, especially with the revised chart (it is a bit more balanced I feel), however 2+ rerolling is kind of amazing. Perhaps too much so. 2+ to hit is already fantastic, but with free rerolls... Maybe make it 4x gets 2+ reroll, 3x gets 2+/4+ or something?
 

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Noticed a mistake.
Weapon Skill 3 on your chart gets heavily penalised 7+ 8+ and 9+ to hit :p

Also don't like the 2+/2+ thing, as before with the 2+/6+ being a bit like the shooting rules now seemed a bit more fair to have a minor reroll, but not a preaty much garenteed hit. In addition if combined with things like Hatred or Preferred Enemy, it could be insanely powerful.

I do however think with these rules things like Daemons and maybe stuff like Eldar or Tyranids would have a field day and be worth more points than they are now because of it. This is both due to the high WS on a lot of the models (I think average WS on bloodletter and daemonettes are 5, heralds being 7s) but also fear possibly reducing them to WS1 would be even more deadly. So you would probably need to change the fear rules to reducing their WS to 1 for only their attacks, however as they are cowering from your guys they would still likely put up the defence, so treated as natural WS for being hit.
 

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My Daemon Princes and Bloodthirsters would absolutely love these tables--hitting Marines on 2+ and getting hit by them only on 6s? Suuure (BT getting rerolls to hit and all, too).

I think "to hit" is supposed to be a more strictly gated roll that everyone has a decent chance at passing or failing so that the mechanics aren't imbalanced. Guardsmen are already wounding monstrous creatures on 6s if they can even wound them--they'd be even more useless if they were only hitting on 6s--it would be like if for shooting they were snapping shots at a T6 FMC with their lasguns, but the MC gets to turn around and kill (nearly) as many of them as it has attacks.

Basically: the hard-capped "to hit" table is a feature, as I see it, not a bug. It lets unskilled hordes, like Guard blobs and Ork mobs, be a viable feature purely for how many dice they are rolling--whereas if the blob is hitting and wounding on 6s, only forcing one save per 36 attacks... that's a lot less viable.

But let's hypothetically say we wanted to make the Bloodthirster even more unstoppable. I would say we shouldn't make the tables advance at a rate of 1 change in the dice roll per 1 change in the chart, but rather 1 change in the roll per 2 in the chart. This keeps, say, Guardsmen hitting Daemonettes on 5s, but lets Marines still hit Daemonettes on 4s. It scales a bit better, I think. The only way to get 2+/2+ is to have, say, a Bloodthirster with Invisibility cast on it. Here, example:



Forgive the lack of a grid and the lack of '+' signs--the former is due to copy/pasting the data into Paint and the latter is because my crappy Excel knock-off sees an attempt to write "4+" as "4+0" and calculates it down to "4." Still, I think the chart is readable, still.
 

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Two ideas to replace Sweeping Advance and Overrun:

1) The squad that fails the Initiative test after losing combat is reduced to I1 in the following round of combat.

2) The squad that passes the Initiative test after winning combat counts as charging in the following round of combat.

I prefer the second one personally. CC squads with Rage benefit hard, but they're Raging. It makes sense. The first one also makes sense as the losing squad would be trying to break away from combat not stay in it, and thus may very well be more intent on dodging and getting away over bringing their weapons to bear on the continued threat.
 
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