[The Irish Commissar]

So I have never played warhammer fantasy but I'm thinking of starting. How is an undead army for someone who is starting fantasy. I heard that tomb kings are a hard army to play so I'm not sure.

 

[JAMOB]

Well, tomb kings just got a whole lot better because in the olden days they collapsed when one model died, but that's no longer the case. Undead are ok for a newbie, about as challenging as any other army~ it's rough, though, because to play at your best you would have to acquire the new end times book as well as the TK and VC books. If that's fine with you, then go ahead! TK are a bit overpriced for what they do, but they have builds that work, namely lots of skeleton archers and warmachines. I don't know much about VCs, but they have some very cool units... What sort of a playstyle do you prefer?

 

[Reaper45]

Both armies require you having more stuff than your opponents, they aren't hard to learn providing you have a firm grasp on the rules. However that being said they require allot of bodies to be played well.

So if you're on a budget or aren't a fast painter you might not get the full fun out of the army.

Since you're just starting out in fantasy I'd personally recommend starting with ogres, they're tough, easy to paint, and you don't have to spend allot in order to get a large force.

 

[MidnightSun]

Undead are weird since they don't follow the same rules as everyone else for Psychology or for losing combat, as well as being able to raise models to replenish your losses. They rely on magic and either combat for VC or shooting for TK, but primarily magic and the buffs you can get from it. They're also fairly good at wars of attrition due to large numbers that can be replaced when lost and they never run away, but against a strong combat opponent they're going to lose models faster than you can replace them. Both armies are fairly slow, and rely on the General to be able to move worth a damn and/or cast magic.

Since you're just starting out in fantasy I'd personally recommend starting with ogres, they're tough, easy to paint, and you don't have to spend allot in order to get a large force.

I'd add a vote to this - Ogres are very easy to play (for me, too much so - I got bored of Step 1. Cast Gut Magic Step 2. Charge very quickly), although I'm not sure that they're significantly cheaper than any other race due to the cost of their characters and the number of basic Ogres or Leadbelchers you want. Ironblasters are dirt cheap for GW models though, and they're amazing, as are Mournfangs who are *fairly* cheap per point as I remember so it all depends on army build.

 

[Words_of_Truth]

With undead you don't need to worry about panic and morale checks, pretty easy imo, very quick to get the hang of.

 

[Reaper45]

Undead are weird since they don't follow the same rules as everyone else for Psychology or for losing combat, as well as being able to raise models to replenish your losses. They rely on magic and either combat for VC or shooting for TK, but primarily magic and the buffs you can get from it. They're also fairly good at wars of attrition due to large numbers that can be replaced when lost and they never run away, but against a strong combat opponent they're going to lose models faster than you can replace them. Both armies are fairly slow, and rely on the General to be able to move worth a damn and/or cast magic.



I'd add a vote to this - Ogres are very easy to play (for me, too much so - I got bored of Step 1. Cast Gut Magic Step 2. Charge very quickly), although I'm not sure that they're significantly cheaper than any other race due to the cost of their characters and the number of basic Ogres or Leadbelchers you want. Ironblasters are dirt cheap for GW models though, and they're amazing, as are Mournfangs who are *fairly* cheap per point as I remember so it all depends on army build.

With ogres two battalions boxes and a special character is all you need for a legal army. You just have to take a few minutes and plan out how to efficiently use what you get.

Since You're going to have maybe 20 models with a 1500 - 2000 point list learning the nuances of the game is easy with them, in the mean time you can spend the time working on the army of your choice while still having an army to play.

 

[Ratvan]

I love my Tomb Kings they are however quite frustrating to Keep the momentum moving due to being unable to march and not being able to increase unit size (unlike Vampire Counts). On the plus side there is a variety of builds that are viable so should keep you occupied for a while. Personally if you want a TK army take the plunge they are easy to play but hard to master which is what I love about them (that and I never really like Vampires, Bats and Wolves as undead)

 

[Creon]

Ahhh. TK can now march if they're in an Army of Undeath. But that requires, as is said, a lot of extra money put out. The not dissolving due to heirophant death is very important now. Also depends on if you're using the new End Times point spread.

 

[Ratvan]

Ahhh. TK can now march if they're in an Army of Undeath. But that requires, as is said, a lot of extra money put out. The not dissolving due to heirophant death is very important now. Also depends on if you're using the new End Times point spread.

IMO the End Times isn't for me £20 for my army to march and for Arkhan and Mannfred to put aside their differences just doesn't sit right with me. I love Arkhan but just no

 

[Creon]

Remember, officially the End times book changes army construction to 50% lords, 50% heroes, 25% minimum troops, 50% special, 25% rare, and you don't need the book. it just happened.

 

[MidnightSun]

Remember, officially the End times book changes army construction to 50% lords, 50% heroes, 25% minimum troops, 50% special, 25% rare, and you don't need the book. it just happened.

Really? I thought Undead Legions was for normal games but the 50% Lords bit was one of the End Times Campaign Rules.

If so, then... well, not a big deal - I seldom spend more than 25% on Lords and 25% on Heroes anyway, because you win through having blocks of infantry that don't run away, not on having a couple of really killy characters. There are just too many ways to kill characters easily.

 

[The Irish Commissar]

I had thought about going for ogres but the new undead rules and fluff sound really interesting. Also I really like the new models. I also like the sounds of having loads of necromancers summon even more undead while the rest march on silent. The thing is I know nothing about the rules, I played a demo game at my local GW but I'm just wondering are they going to be one of those armies that take a long time to get good at. I'll start by buying the nagash book and getting ideas from that, afterwards I'll probley get the tomb kings and see what there like.

 

[Creon]

Go for Ogres and use the Butchers to summon undead. There, you're good

 

[KarnalBloodfist]

I'll start by buying the nagash book and getting ideas from that, afterwards I'll probley get the tomb kings and see what there like.

Unless the Nagash book is the way things are going to be once 9th Ed rolls around, I wouldn't put to much stock into the funky rules in there. From what I can tell it's just another supplement like Storm of Magic was. I would concentrate on the rules in the BRB and whichever army book you choose to use.

I play VC as one of my armies and, while not hard to play, the strategies vary quite a bit due to the different ways in which they calculate combat, how much they rely on magic to keep the army moving/replenished (more so the latter), how horrid their Core choices are in combat (worse than Gobbos!), etc. So, like TK, easy to play if you know the basic rules, a little different to master. However, if you're not starting a new army after having played a "normal" race, it may not make to much of a difference as you'll have nothing to compare it to.

 

[Vaz]

Unless the Nagash book is the way things are going to be once 9th Ed rolls around, I wouldn't put to much stock into the funky rules in there. From what I can tell it's just another supplement like Storm of Magic was. I would concentrate on the rules in the BRB and whichever army book you choose to use.

I play VC as one of my armies and, while not hard to play, the strategies vary quite a bit due to the different ways in which they calculate combat, how much they rely on magic to keep the army moving/replenished (more so the latter), how horrid their Core choices are in combat (worse than Gobbos!), etc. So, like TK, easy to play if you know the basic rules, a little different to master. However, if you're not starting a new army after having played a "normal" race, it may not make to much of a difference as you'll have nothing to compare it to.

The vast departure of rules and the vast advancement of the fluff (as opposed to filling in an event in history) suggests otherwise - rules for having several similar buildings placed together suggests fortifications, conjoined stats for Monster and Rider, new spell-lores available universally...

End times has some awesome combinations - Necrotects/Tomb Kings in units of Grave Guard for Frenzy, WS6 and then giving them all +1 to hit, for example.

Bear in mind that taking Undead Legion precludes you from allowing Tomb Kings and Princes in chariots to join other units of Tomb Kings Chariots as that particular special rule allowing that refers purely to Tomb Kings armies, but it's so weak and one trick pony (in a meta that has at least 3 cannon type effects in most armies anyway), along with the rest of the army being so poor that I've yet to see anyone play it competitively. Its spell lore might be a bit more powerful now with some capable units backing it up, and the weakness of being unable to raise new units effectively heal etc is now gone.

Edit - and ignore reaper. 20 models is about 700pts for Ogres. Their biggest weakness was cost effectiveness in the past, but 8th edition made 2000pts harder to achieve.

 

[Reaper45]

The vast departure of rules and the vast advancement of the fluff (as opposed to filling in an event in history) suggests otherwise - rules for having several similar buildings placed together suggests fortifications, conjoined stats for Monster and Rider, new spell-lores available universally...

End times has some awesome combinations - Necrotects/Tomb Kings in units of Grave Guard for Frenzy, WS6 and then giving them all +1 to hit, for example.

Bear in mind that taking Undead Legion precludes you from allowing Tomb Kings and Princes in chariots to join other units of Tomb Kings Chariots as that particular special rule allowing that refers purely to Tomb Kings armies, but it's so weak and one trick pony (in a meta that has at least 3 cannon type effects in most armies anyway), along with the rest of the army being so poor that I've yet to see anyone play it competitively. Its spell lore might be a bit more powerful now with some capable units backing it up, and the weakness of being unable to raise new units effectively heal etc is now gone.

Edit - and ignore reaper. 20 models is about 700pts for Ogres. Their biggest weakness was cost effectiveness in the past, but 8th edition made 2000pts harder to achieve.

It was a rough estimate and I guessed low.

Sue me.

 

[Vaz]

Why are you giving advice on something you know nothing about?

This is rhetorical, do not answer and take the thread off topic

 

[The Irish Commissar]

I had thought about ogres, but their model line is so small, doesn't look like there is much room for different builds. But when I look at the undead I see two armies which seem like they have loaf's of different builds. I'm not going to be super competitive when I first start as I want to get used to the rules first. I just don't want to start an army that will be too complicated to play or will see be crushed every time I.but my models on the table.

 

[Vaz]

The problem is with Tomb Kings, I cannot actually see a phase in which they adequately compete.

Let's look at Tomb Kings;

Heirophant; benefits provided including a 6+ Ward save for him and his unit. Everything else is a malus - must be the highest level wizard, and must take Lore of Nehekhara, Crumble Tests if he dies.

List strengths;

Tomb Kings/Princes - WS6/5 for your infantry and chariots seem kind of cool, until you realise that you're limited to S3 Skeletons (only benefit is free Light Armour), or Tomb Guard (who pay more for Halberds than Grave Guard pay for Great Weapons - and with I3, for the most part, and then partly thanks to Step Up and Supporting Attacks, it doesn't make a difference against the units you're going to be wanting them up against - things like Executioners, or Chaos Warriors).

Chariot units - they provide a similar damage output as a basic heavy cavalry unit. The problem is, they cost around 2-3 times what someone who is paying for a unit of Empire Knights. With a S4 charge as well, they're not exactly hitting much.

Compare them to another Core Chariot - Chaos Chariots. They cost half as much, but as a Scythed Chariot, it's doing twice the impact hits, the two chaos warriors are dealing double the damage, it is tougher (T5, 4 wounds, 3+ save), and can take a Mark of Chaos, like Nurgle to make it even more resilient or tougher (-1 to hit in melee, in conjunction with WS5, means that WS2 units like your skellies without princes etc are hitting on a 6+, and most others are hitting on a 5+).

Necroknights I always forget about - they're kind of cool, but for Monstrous Cavalry, they're not really all that, 2 Killing Blow attacks/base and 3 S5 Poisoned Attacks are hardly game winners, especially with Initiative 3 and WS3-4 - at 65pts per, they're a lot of waste - compare that to say Skullcrushers - 13 points more, but have +1 WS, +1 Strength, +2 Initiative, +1 Attack, 1+ Saves, mounts with a S6 Charge... Yeah. They're still good - but at a level when everything else is so much better. It is slightly unfair comparing them to something as "broken" as Skullcrushers (which need to be cheap enough to be taken, but also to be stand out killy in an army of stand out killy anyway). If you compare them to something similar to Demigryph Knights, they're 7pts a model cheaper.

The One thing that Tomb Kings does exceptionally well is Power Dice generation, between the Casket of Souls and the Heirotitan - it's just a shame that to get any good use out of the lores they have access to (Lore of Light or Death, the two most powerful lores arguably in game, even if they are somewhat situational), you have a 210pt model Tax, on top of your general (you're going to want the Ld10 King for the bubble on crumble tests), which means that you're shit out of luck unless you play The End Times rules allowing 50% lords - 25% in a 2K list is your Liche High Priest, 100pts of items and a level 4, coming in a 310, leaving your King on Foot and 20pts for Magic Items, or a second L3 Wizard with 15pts of kit.

The Lore of Nehekhara is pretty terrible - any augment also heals D3+1 wounds. That's pitiful - it's a single Chaos Warriors attack routine, or 16pts of Empire Halberdiers.

Cursed Blades gives you Killing Blow in CC, or increases Killing Blow range on your existing KB's. Its short range means that if you're going to be using it on your Chariots/Necroknights or whatever, you're going to need to shell out for Fly of some sort (Cloak of Dunes). Another spell provides a 5+ Ward Save to a single unit - which makes units sort of tougher - but honestly, it's a waste of spellcasting potential - if you're using it on a tanky unit, there should be enough bodies anyway - you have skellies. If using it on things like Necroknights or Chariots, then you've charged into something too killy to handle, and despite a 33% reduction in damage, it will in all likelihood see you killed anyway. Short range on it can be lethal.

Smiting - many people were hacked off that the one amazing use it had back in 6th edition for getting double Screaming Skull shots off was written off. Now you're making your "killy" units slightly more killy, or your horde units able to kill another couple of models. Works best with ranged units as its short range can let you sit in your deployment - but BS shooting is kind of wank when only 1/3rd of your shots hit.

Vengeance Dangerous Terrain can be lethal - it actually has a useable range. 10+ is a risky 2 cast though - would have been decent as a 8+ spell. Dessication is a decent debuff, and has a useable range as well, but the augment is kind of suck for a 22+. Would have been better for a 14+ augment with 48" range to let you backline and then SSC them into oblivion. Skullstorm blows hairy chode. 15+ for a S4 hit on a small template? BRB lores are offering save or dies here. And the signature spell? You're never going to get this off - and the limitation on being unable to charge during this movement renders it ineffectual.

 

[The Irish Commissar]

@Vaz Thanks a million for that rundown in the army. Can the weakness of the tomb kings be nullified with the addition of vampire counts. From what I read, vampires are extremely strong and tough. People recommend you go archer heavy and troop heavy with the tomb king half while getting the elites from the vampire counts book. What do you guys think.