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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm sorry if this has been asked before, but has the exact casualty figures been given for the Ultramarines at Calth. I ask as I was in a GW store today and the guy who worked there said they suffered 90% casualties and to be exact they suffered 270,000 casualties out of a total Legion strength of 300,000.

I didn't want to argue with the guy as I wasn't sure so I thought I'd ask here :)
 

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The Emperor Protects
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Whilst I don't have the figures or an approximate to hand, though I'll have a look later, I can say that it was not that high.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Whilst I don't have the figures or an approximate to hand, though I'll have a look later, I can say that it was not that high.
I didn't think it was but as I didn't have any info to give back I politely nodded :)
 

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Bane of Empires
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I didn't think it was but as I didn't have any info to give back I politely nodded :)
I haven't got Know No Fear to hand, so I'm working off memory here: Out of a total Legion size of (roughly) 250,000, I seem to remember KNF stating that 200,000 mustered at Calth whilst the remaining 50,000 were garrisoning the remaining Five Hundred Worlds or otherwise engaged. Off the top of my head I can't remember the number of casualties, but I just did a quick search and a guy over at Warseer claims that KNF directly states 4/5ths of the Ultramarines Fleet was destroyed and over half of the Space Marines at Calth were confirmed to have been killed, with most of the remainder subsequently either stranded on Calth or involved in the Underworld War.

If those numbers are accurate (someone with an ebook copy may be able to confirm/deny) then the XIII Legion probably lost well over half of their overall numbers and the vast majority of their fleet as a result of Calth and the Shadow Crusade. I would go as far as to estimate perhaps as many as 75% (I admit that is not a conservative estimate!) of their overall Legion numbers were killed as a result of Calth and the Shadow Crusade - it being a testament to their organisation and the productiveness of Ultramar that they were able to recover relatively successfully.

@zerachiel: Have you read Know No Fear?
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I haven't got Know No Fear to hand, so I'm working off memory here: Out of a total Legion size of (roughly) 250,000, I seem to remember KNF stating that 200,000 mustered at Calth whilst the remaining 50,000 were garrisoning the remaining Five Hundred Worlds or otherwise engaged. Off the top of my head I can't remember the number of casualties, but I just did a quick search and a guy over at Warseer claims that KNF directly states 4/5ths of the Ultramarines Fleet was destroyed and over half of the Space Marines at Calth were confirmed to have been killed, with most of the remainder subsequently either stranded on Calth or involved in the Underworld War.

If those numbers are accurate (someone with an ebook copy may be able to confirm/deny) then the XIII Legion probably lost well over half of their overall numbers and the vast majority of their fleet as a result of Calth and the Shadow Crusade. I would go as far as to estimate perhaps as many as 75% (I admit that is not a conservative estimate!) of their overall Legion numbers were killed as a result of Calth and the Shadow Crusade - it being a testament to their organisation and the productiveness of Ultramar that they were able to recover relatively successfully.

@zerachiel: Have you read Know No Fear?
Thanks for the info COTE and yes I read it a while back and unfortunately I now cannot find it d'oh!!!

I agree it's incredible that they were able to recover as well as they did! It also brings into perspective the losses of the shattered Legions as going the figures you quote , the UMs lost more Marines (200,000) than the Raven Guard (77,000) and the Salamanders (80 ish thousand) put together.

In fact it could even be argued (since I'm not sure of the exact number of losses suffered by the Iron Hands) that the UMs lost a similar number of Marines at Calth and during the Shadow Crusade than all 3 of the shattered Legions combined at Istvaan V, and yet recovered enough to lead the scouring 7 years later. To me that is staggering!!
 

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Craw-Daddy
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I haven't got Know No Fear to hand, so I'm working off memory here: Out of a total Legion size of (roughly) 250,000, I seem to remember KNF stating that 200,000 mustered at Calth whilst the remaining 50,000 were garrisoning the remaining Five Hundred Worlds or otherwise engaged. Off the top of my head I can't remember the number of casualties, but I just did a quick search and a guy over at Warseer claims that KNF directly states 4/5ths of the Ultramarines Fleet was destroyed and over half of the Space Marines at Calth were confirmed to have been killed, with most of the remainder subsequently either stranded on Calth or involved in the Underworld War.

If those numbers are accurate (someone with an ebook copy may be able to confirm/deny) then the XIII Legion probably lost well over half of their overall numbers and the vast majority of their fleet as a result of Calth and the Shadow Crusade. I would go as far as to estimate perhaps as many as 75% (I admit that is not a conservative estimate!) of their overall Legion numbers were killed as a result of Calth and the Shadow Crusade - it being a testament to their organisation and the productiveness of Ultramar that they were able to recover relatively successfully.

@zerachiel: Have you read Know No Fear?
Would not be surprised. It sounds about right considering they were literally fighting with guns pointed at their backs. Even though they still managed to thwart off the betrayal, I would not be surprised if it was higher. I used to be really good with numbers, but I remember the Ultramarines being 300,000 before the heresy. I wouldn't be surprised if it was bigger during the battle of the Calth.
 

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I read KnF a few times...I don't believe we get a real accurate number on fleet destruction. Even a set percentage is misleading, since the Word Bearers purposely left the largest ships alone...to be boarded later to augment the Word Bearers' fleet.

As for exact losses...it's unclear. In the closing phase of the surprise attack, we have "as many" as thirty thousand active marines fighting on Calth. So that means 170,000 dead Ultramarines, right? QED?

Not quite. Remember, it says "as many as"...which means less, potentially.

On the other hand, this estimate is based upon the information of 1 limited data-engine. There could have been a lot more fighting on the planet, but simply not registered by the engine.

Also, this only includes active members. Many marines might have gone to ground, looking for supplies, fallen into a sus-an induced coma, or simply regrouping and getting ready to strike. Many were probably cut-off, choked by scrap code, and just holding tight until they figure out what the hell is going on.

My own opinion, with these allowances, I'm guessing the number of marines that survived the conflict...definitely 50,000+ (which means over 100,000 marines left). Maybe as much as 120,000 as an upper limit.

Calth certainly hurt the Ultramarines (80,000-150,000) losses, but I don't think it crippled them in anyway that the Raven Guard or Salamanders were.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Helps when you have a 500 world empire. :)
Yup, although I'm unsure how many worlds were left after the Shadow Crusade.

I read KnF a few times...I don't believe we get a real accurate number on fleet destruction. Even a set percentage is misleading, since the Word Bearers purposely left the largest ships alone...to be boarded later to augment the Word Bearers' fleet.

As for exact losses...it's unclear. In the closing phase of the surprise attack, we have "as many" as thirty thousand active marines fighting on Calth. So that means 170,000 dead Ultramarines, right? QED?

Not quite. Remember, it says "as many as"...which means less, potentially.

On the other hand, this estimate is based upon the information of 1 limited data-engine. There could have been a lot more fighting on the planet, but simply not registered by the engine.

Also, this only includes active members. Many marines might have gone to ground, looking for supplies, fallen into a sus-an induced coma, or simply regrouping and getting ready to strike. Many were probably cut-off, choked by scrap code, and just holding tight until they figure out what the hell is going on.

My own opinion, with these allowances, I'm guessing the number of marines that survived the conflict...definitely 50,000+ (which means over 100,000 marines left). Maybe as much as 120,000 as an upper limit.

Calth certainly hurt the Ultramarines (80,000-150,000) losses, but I don't think it crippled them in anyway that the Raven Guard or Salamanders were.
You raise a really good point here Hailene, "actively fighting" is such an interesting phrase. :)

If they lost 150,000 that would roughly equal the losses of the Raven Guard and Salamanders put together at Istvaan V which I still find staggering.

Thanks everyone for your responses and I'll have to decide if I want to continue searching for my copy of KNF or whether to buy a new copy! :(
 

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Cruel Commissar
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I thought they got hit lightly. As the Space Marine codex mentions the 23 times deal, and Dan Abnett said 250.000 plus auxiliaries, also they formed the backbone of the new Space Marines. Also when the Grey Knights were founded there were about 400 chapters. That comes from the Grey Knight codex.
 

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The Emperor Protects
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The Ultramarines look to have chapters spread out throughout the 500 worlds as well, along with being scattered across numerous space stations, detachments to other Legions and stationed on special worlds like Molech. I reckon if you took all these together you would have quite a large chunk of the Legion not present at Calth.
 

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Craw-Daddy
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I thought they got hit lightly. As the Space Marine codex mentions the 23 times deal, and Dan Abnett said 250.000 plus auxiliaries, also they formed the backbone of the new Space Marines. Also when the Grey Knights were founded there were about 400 chapters. That comes from the Grey Knight codex.
Really? See the first strike on the Ultramarines seemed to have been a death stroke. I mean the Word Bearers literally butchered entire Ultramarines at a time. If this is so, it would make sense for just the initial assault to have equalled the amount of the perpetrators, or at least pretty close. It was really the Word Bearer's tendency to disperse and not really focus most of their force on the remnants that allowed the Ultramarines to consolidate and fight back.
 

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Bane of Empires
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The Ultramarines look to have chapters spread out throughout the 500 worlds as well, along with being scattered across numerous space stations, detachments to other Legions and stationed on special worlds like Molech. I reckon if you took all these together you would have quite a large chunk of the Legion not present at Calth.
KNF directly states they had around 50,000 Space Marines stationed around the Five Hundred Worlds (or otherwise not mustered at Calth).

Really? See the first strike on the Ultramarines seemed to have been a death stroke. I mean the Word Bearers literally butchered entire Ultramarines at a time. If this is so, it would make sense for just the initial assault to have equalled the amount of the perpetrators, or at least pretty close. It was really the Word Bearer's tendency to disperse and not really focus most of their force on the remnants that allowed the Ultramarines to consolidate and fight back.
Also note that, as far as I know, the Ultramarines vastly outnumbered the Word Bearers at Calth.
 

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Craw-Daddy
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KNF
Also note that, as far as I know, the Ultramarines vastly outnumbered the Word Bearers at Calth.
I would agree with that. In fact, I would be surprised if the Ultramarines numbers weren't higher than 300,000 in total throughout the Imperium. I thought it was assumed that the legions kept growing.
 

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You raise a really good point here Hailene, "actively fighting" is such an interesting phrase.
Oh, I forgot to mention, this only accounts for the Ultramarines on the planet. Remember, the attack happened less than a day before the Calth muster was supposed to leave. Most of the Ultramarines were probably already loaded up.

True, while the Ultramarine fleet was devastated in the attack...the largest of the ships were notably spared. God knows how many Ultramarines were safe on these ships.

Also when the Grey Knights were founded there were about 400 chapters. That comes from the Grey Knight codex.
We had a discussion about 400 Second-Founding Chapters in another thread...a year or two ago? We did the math, and there couldn't really have been 400,000 Loyalist marines by the end of the Scouring. Best guess we had was that the new Chapters were probably understrength (which makes sense).

Also note that, as far as I know, the Ultramarines vastly outnumbered the Word Bearers at Calth.
Very likely true. We know that the Word Bearers were supposed to bring 50,000 men to Calth gathering. While it is possible the Word Bearers lied about their numbers, it seems a very unlikely lie. The extra numbers could have tipped the Word Bearers' hand before their surprise attack. Plus, if they wanted to send more, why not tell Horus to tell Guilliman 75,000 or 100,000 Word Bearers were coming instead? Remember, Horus is still a "loyal" Warmaster at this point.

This 50,000 of course is compared to the 200,000 Ultramarines we know to be mustered at Calth.

I would agree with that. In fact, I would be surprised if the Ultramarines numbers weren't higher than 300,000 in total throughout the Imperium.
Very unlikely. We're told specifically that the Ultramarines have 25 Chapters. And each Chapter is made up of 10,000 men. I mean, theoretically, each of these Chapters could be overstrengthed...but we're talking about the Ultramarines and bloody Guilliman at the helm. I don't think he'd allow the numbers to be fudged that long.
 

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Cruel Commissar
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We had a discussion about 400 Second-Founding Chapters in another thread...a year or two ago? We did the math, and there couldn't really have been 400,000 Loyalist marines by the end of the Scouring. Best guess we had was that the new Chapters were probably understrength (which makes sense).
I can't remember the discussion, but many people think there weren't 400k SM around. Well I have just done the math and the most causality-ridden unit ever in any warfare were the German u-boats, with 66%. So my numbers stands the test of time which I think the authors more than likely based the whole deal on.

The IOM seems to have had around 2-3 million Space Marines when the HH erupted. Half of that being lost with some of them suffering really catastrophic losses of like 80% or more can just be described by the word calamity.

The endgame shows that the Ultramarines for better or worse escaped relatively unharmed despite the battle of Calth and their subsequent battles with the Alpha legion which is well-established in fluff.
 

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I can't remember the discussion, but many people think there weren't 400k SM around. Well I have just done the math and the most causality-ridden unit ever in any warfare were the German u-boats, with 66%. So my numbers stands the test of time which I think the authors more than likely based the whole deal on.
This makes almost no sense. You decide to compare casualties between the German U-boat sailors and a fictional war.

That's...wow.

Could you come up with some numbers, post-Scouring, for the remaining 9 Loyalist Legions to end up with 400k+ marines? Just a list of Loyalist Legions with their original strength (pre-Heresy) and their strength post-Scouring.
 

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Cruel Commissar
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Of course it makes sense, the Space Marines seems to have lost approximately half their number while the German u-boats lot about 66% of their number as a unit tend to be routed if it suffers more than 50% causalities in war. Doesn't sound that much but it truly is much.

As for the numbers. You have the Ultramarines being about 250.000 and such. I guess you can find the numbering here http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Space_Marine_Legions if you trust the site.
 

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Bane of Empires
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Of course it makes sense, the Space Marines seems to have lost approximately half their number while the German u-boats lot about 66% of their number as a unit tend to be routed if it suffers more than 50% causalities in war. Doesn't sound that much but it truly is much.
Lol. These are Space Marines we are talking about. There are numerous examples of whole Chapters fighting, literally, to the last man. Space Marines know no fear and will not route unless ordered to do so.

The endgame shows that the Ultramarines for better or worse escaped relatively unharmed despite the battle of Calth and their subsequent battles with the Alpha legion which is well-established in fluff.
Sorry, but that's a load of bollocks. The Battle of Calth and the Shadow Crusade would have destroyed at least 50% of the Ultramarines overall numbers (if not significantly more). It is also known that they took the brunt of the fighting during The Scouring.

They may have recovered relatively well, but they certainly did not escape "relatively unharmed despite the Battle of Calth..."

Also, it cannot be confirmed whether or not the Battle of Eskrador (against the Alpha Legion) actually happened.
 
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