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Umm, you need both arms to get extra attacks (for Angel of Blood's death company dreadnought), and he lost the heavy flamer arm. It's on page 60 of the codex.
Interestingly, the wording says nothing specific about if one arm is destroyed. Though I guess "has two blood talons" is fairly straightforward. Looks like a re-roll is in order then.
The weapon destroyed result was on the Heavy Flamer it seems, you don't actually lose the arm. To lose the extra attack you'd need to have had the CCW destroyed.

Check on Page 84 of the BRB.
 

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Think about it though Magpie.. if you could destroy what IS specified as a built-in weapon separately from the arm it is attached to, then the reverse would be true, and you could somehow destroy the Dreadnought arm without losing the Heavy Flamer, which doesnt make sense.

I'm relieved we're in for a re-roll of course, but if I lose legitimately, then well done Angel of Blood (and if I lose in the same way, then thats what I get for being a nooblet and forgetting about the craptastic Morale of Guardsmen)
 

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It's not about "sense" it's about what is in the rules. You can't destroy the arm.
The result on the damage table is "weapon destroyed" not "arm destroyed"

If you want to talk practicalities then the models clearly have the flamer hanging off the bottom of the arm, very easy to shoot it off and leave the talons operational.
 

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Under "Wargear" for the Death Company Dreadnought, the Bloodfist with Built-In Weapon is listed as One Entry, not two separate ones. Therefore it is reasonable to assume that they are treated as One Weapon
 

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Under "Wargear" for the Death Company Dreadnought, the Bloodfist with Built-In Weapon is listed as One Entry, not two separate ones. Therefore it is reasonable to assume that they are treated as One Weapon
Yet you can change the fists to talons without losing the "built-ins"

What ever the semantics of it, the Dreadnaught has 4 weapons. Two fists/talons, a H Flamer and a Melta.

Any Weapon destroyed result needs to randomly destroy 1 of these, leaving the others operational.
 

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If there were four separate weapons for the purposes of weapons destroyed, it would have four separate weapons listed under "Wargear". There are not, so it does not.

Just so I'm not holding out false hope here Spanner, what's your official ruling on this?
 

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If you want to talk practicalities then the models clearly have the flamer hanging off the bottom of the arm, very easy to shoot it off and leave the talons operational.
If your going to bring the model into it, then I'll point out that the Built-In Weapon, whatever it may be, is always attached to the underside of the Fist/Talon. Anything that blows off the Fist/Talon would take the Built-In Weapon with it.
 

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If your going to bring the model into it, then I'll point out that the Built-In Weapon, whatever it may be, is always attached to the underside of the Fist/Talon. Anything that blows off the Fist/Talon would take the Built-In Weapon with it.
Not necessarily, it could be a simple as something breaking the promethium hose, however all that is irrelevant as we should be going off what the rules say.
 

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Would it be possible to see my results laid out turn by turn. I'm surprised I dealt so little damage and took so much. Also if he overheated how did he do a wound?

I'm just trying to make sure everything got accounted for, like the leadership check at -2 for when he lost close combat.
 

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Would it be possible to see my results laid out turn by turn. I'm surprised I dealt so little damage and took so much. Also if he overheated how did he do a wound?

I'm just trying to make sure everything got accounted for, like the leadership check at -2 for when he lost close combat.
Not sure but it might be rapid fire, one good shot and one that overheats ?
 

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I wouldn't want to presume anything, but this looks like it's headed to an Orky Sivul Waaagh!

Good luck Meddler, and hard luck Clown. In the battle of the big ugly green dude vs 30 little ugly green dudes, it's revealed that quantity has a quality all of it's own.
Thanks:) Here's to hoping I break the greenskin curse:p
 

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Good luck Meddler, and hard luck Clown. In the battle of the big ugly green dude vs 30 little ugly green dudes, it's revealed that quantity has a quality all of it's own.
Good game Midnight, Well done! Not much you can do against that many Orks :blackeye:
 

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Discussion Starter #154
Would it be possible to see my results laid out turn by turn. I'm surprised I dealt so little damage and took so much. Also if he overheated how did he do a wound?

I'm just trying to make sure everything got accounted for, like the leadership check at -2 for when he lost close combat.
- Pre-turn preparations: Jokearo rolls a 1 (+1 modifier). Improved Gun Sights.
- Tau shooting: Plasma Rifle and Missile Pod, three hits, two wounds allocated to Plasma Gun Acolyte and Carapace Storm Bolter Acolyte.
- Warband shooting: (Neuroweb System Jammers), Storm Bolter shooting (6 hits, 3 wounds, no failed armour saves - one Gets Hot wound), Plasma Gun shooting (4 hits, 4 wounds, one failed invulnerable save), Jokearo Lascannons (0 hits).
- Close Combat: Tau (2 hits, 1 wound, no failed armour saves), Warband (8 hits, 2 wounds, no failed armour saves)

- Tau shooting: Plasma Rifle and Missile Pod, three hits, 1 wound allocated to Storm Shield Acolyte, failed invulnerable save.
- Warband shooting: *Neuroweb System Jammers* Storm Bolters (3 hits, 2 wounds, no failed armour saves), Plasma Guns (3 hits, 2 wounds, 2 unsavable wounds), Jokearo Lascannons (1 hit, 1 wound, 1 unsavable wound).
- Close Combat: Tau (3 hits, 2 wounds, Jokearo failed armour save, Plasma Gun failed armour save), Warband (5 hits, 1 wound, no failed armour saves)
MORALE CHECK (Warband): 4 - passed (with -4 modifier).

- Tau shooting: Plasma Rifle and Missile Pod (4 hits, 4 wounds, 4 unsavable wounds - Jokearo, 2x Carapace Storm Bolter Acolytes, Plasma Gun)
- Warband shooting: *Neuroweb System Jammers* Storm Bolters (4 hits, 1 wound, no failed armour saves), Jokearo Lascannon (0 hits), Plasma Gun (1 hit, 1 wound, 1 unsavable wound, Gets Hot wound).

Tau Commander eliminated. Warband survivors - Flak armour Storm Bolter Acolyte.
Hard luck mate, it was damn close.

If there were four separate weapons for the purposes of weapons destroyed, it would have four separate weapons listed under "Wargear". There are not, so it does not.

Just so I'm not holding out false hope here Spanner, what's your official ruling on this?
It would appear, upon reading the BRB section on P.84 more closely, that the "arm" is not a weapon specifically. Instead, we have two parts: the Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon (Blood Talon), and the Heavy Flamer. From this it would then seem that one OR the other would be destroyed, and not both. That said, I played with the other ruling all the way through 5th edition (hasn't really been an issue in 6th as I don't see/use many walkers). Also, as routine mentioned, the wargear lists the arm as including both parts.

Final Judgement: I will re-roll the round, but I will use the ruling that they are treated separately.

You think emailing GW could get us a clear answer?
 

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You think emailing GW could get us a clear answer?
No, the rule has changed.

5th Ed
"If the walker suffers a weapon destroyed result
and the player chooses the close combat weapon,
the walker loses the bonuses conferred by the
Dreadnought close combat weapon (and any
other weapon built into the same arm)." Page 73

6th Ed
"If one of its additional Melee weapons is destroyed, one bonus Attack is lost. If the destroyed weapon is a Dreadnought close combat weapon,
the Walker loses the bonuses conferred by that Dreadnought
close combat weapon" Page 84
 

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Which doesnt actually say whether or not built in weapons are destroyed as well, Magpie.

However, on closer inspection today, I noticed that the "Weapon Destroyed" result description on the Vehicle Damage Table DOES specify, and does indeed say that Built-In Weapons count as separate Weapons to be destroyed.
 

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Btw Spanner, Is this honesty of mine going to bite me in the ass? If so, someone will need to lend me a Nerf-Bat so I can smack myself upside the head
 

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Which doesnt actually say whether or not built in weapons are destroyed as well, Magpie.
That's the funny thing with rules; you go off what they do say, not what they don't say.

It's changed from 5th Ed, there is no mention of the arm and all its weapons being destroyed along with the DCCW anymore.
 

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Discussion Starter #159 (Edited)
Well fair enough then. The round will be re-rolled regardless as I treated the Weapon Destroyed result as destroying the arm, whilst failing to notice the ruling on Blood Talons gaining additional attacks. I'll get that up for you ASAP.

EDIT:

Angel of Blood vs routine

The Dreadnought slays five Guardsmen. In return the Guardsmen fire their meltas, with one hitting, penetrating, and causing the Dreadnought to explode.

routine moves on.


So that finished in quite an anti-climax. :laugh:
 

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Ohh. A reversal! That kinda sucks. Looking at the battles this round, I'm glad my Scorpions died early on. Being caught in an explosion is probably less painful than some of the other ways units are dropping.

Interesting about the built-in weapons too. Funny how we still are finding rule changes a year later. But these fiddly little bits also don't come up too often for many of us. So, they can be easy to overlook.
 
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