[spawn1990]

dj scrbies
pst 130

Herald of tzeentch on chariort
master of sorcery,bolt,breath of chaos,soul devouerer
pst 150

Herald of tzeentch on chariort
master of sorcery,bolt,breath of chaos
pst 130

Troops
10 horrors, bolt
pst 180

Just made a list for fun any thoughts?

10 horrors, bolt
pst 180

10 horrors, bolt,changling
pst 185

Elities
4 flamers
pst140

Heavy support
Daemon prince
mark of tzeentch, unholy might, iorn hide,gaze, breath
pst 205

Daemon prince
mark of tzeentch, unholy might, iorn hide,gaze, breath
pst 205

Total 1505

 

[spawn1990]

just made list for fun any thoughts?

 

[Kurce]

list is illegal, me thinks. herald of tzeentch can only have 3 upgrades. you have 4 listed.

 

[spawn1990]

oh yes well i will get rid of soul devouer and add another horror in squad

 

[Chumbalaya]

Mono Tzeentch needs bolts to pop armor and breath/warpfire to kill infantry. The more of both you have, the better.

I'd keep the Princes as cheap as possible (Bolt and you can call it a day, their CC stats make up for the lack of mobility and Breath) and fit in more Flamers with a bolt in each unit.

 

[spawn1990]

thanks for advice i could drop a herald and get another unit of flamers was going to put dj scribies with flamers then pavane them and breath on them

 

[Tim/Steve]

I would avoid the bolt on flamers- in my mono tzeentch army it never seemed necessary: if I was close enough breath did fine and if not then your unit is not only dead but useless. Flamers tend to either hide or live for 1 turn... spending that 1 turn with a single S8 hit on a vehicle (for a significant upgrade cost) just seemed useless to me.

As for putting the scribes with the flamers that wont work- all shooting happens at the same time so the pavane and the breath from the flamers would happen at the same time... if you want to use the scribe's pavane to set units up for flamers then the scribes needs to be in a different unit or on its own (and it can never set itself up for a breathe as its own 2 powers occur as 1).

 

[Chumbalaya]

If you use them as a suicide unit, then yes. Flamers can be more than that. Consider their mobility and versatility. Flamers are jump infantry, so they have a great deal more mobility than most other units, plus they have the choice between warpfire and breath and some times Bolt. This is versatility and versatility is good, especially in a random army like Daemons.

It's less about wasting 105 points hoping you don't scatter and kill 5 marines, more about knocking out/suppressing armor from afar, whittling down units from further away, and following up with the Breath to finish off. Think of Breath as your close combat, the mop up.

 

[Tim/Steve]

LMAO- flamers are a suicide unit no matter how you can play them unless you can get them completely out of LoS... any even vaguely decent player knows exactly what they can do and will kill them as soon as they show up. So you could either trust to luck and go hunting that termy/devy squad (or large numbers of marines or equivalent) and smash the enemy or you could sit off from afar and ping a S8 shot off a tanks armour... either way you're going to get killed in the next turn unless you really are playing an enemy with no shooting.
- you laugh at the survivability of screamers and yet suddenly flamers at double the cost (and massively higher on target priority) are meant to survive..?

Im pretty much believe that if I have 2-3 turns from my flamers that Ive won the game, partially because I would have done some serious damage in that time but more just because the enemy is too weak to kill them.

 

[Chumbalaya]

Flamers are fragile, but with bolt they can destroy/suppress enemy armor so it's not shooting back. Take multiple units, Tzeralds and DPs all with bolt and you're able to shut down enemy return fire and present so many dangerous targets that they can't possible destroy them all.

Range, versatility and redundancy are what makes Flamers good and Screamers shit.

 

[Tim/Steve]

Not really- destroying a flamer unit isnt hard enough to make it a hard choice... flamers first and then move onto DPs and heralds.
As for suppressing enemy fire I think you are either high or playing another game- S8 weaponry is only good for stopping light tanks, and there arent many of them that punch hard enough to care about... If the enemy brings something like a dakka predator and positions it right then either you can let all the bolts in your army bounce off the front armour (6 to pen) or risk a mishap going for side armour (and then get anhiliated by concentrated RF fire)... it really isnt that hard to place an army so that daemons arent going to be getting easy shots on side/rear armour.
Even worse if if the enemy has a leman russ or 2- throuw them in a corner and it basically just stops the standard bolt units from going close )especially if its a punisher).


But back to the old flogging horse of an argument... but with a new spin.
Chum is preaching the worth of a single bolt on a flamer unit, but for the 10pts more you can get 3 units of 3 screamers. If we assume I've just taken his list and switched 1 unit of flamers for the screamers I've 1 less BS4 bolt to throw at the enemy (which has a 55% chance of not even getting a glance vs AV11) then Im not reducing my damage output by much at all.... and in return I then force the enemy to move all their tanks (losing the ability to shoot if they move fast enough) or be pathetically easy to destroy, which happens anyway on any tank that gets stunned/immobalised (and AV14 tanks are no issue, especially those with AV10 rear armour- you cant hide that weakness from screamers).
The funniest part of this argument is that CHum always says that screamers are just far too easy to destroy... and yet he thinks that his flamers will live (when they are equally as hard to kill, except that I have almost 3 times his numbers).

Flamers are immense, but they are expensive, top 1-2 on the enemy target priority, pathetically easy to kill (and its also easy to kill the bolt flamer with a bit of wound allocation) and worst of all they compete with fiends... sure this is a tzeentch thread but then coming from someone who preaches fiends with every line he types it seems a little off...

Balance is the key to a good daemon army, a tzeentch army especially. You can go route 1 and hope for luck- bolting the enemy until they are tost... but come up against AV13-4 facings and you'll be dead in the water, or you can use a bit of balance, lose very little firepower but have screamers to draw fire off more vulnerable units (like horrors, flamers and even chariots HoTs), race in and kill and damage tanks, force enemies to keep moving their tanks or face vertual guarenteed destruction (and you could get lucky and roll a hit even if they do move quickly- 3 dice trying for a 6 is over a 40% chance) and then their bes gamewinning ability of just turbo-boosting to block enemy objectives.... any mono-tzeentch army of 1k or more that isnt using 6-9 just hasnt been built right. Im pretty much of the opinion that any 1.5-2k daemon list of any sort that hasnt spent the 150pts on 3 units of screamers is probably missing something...

 

[AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH]

Well, rather than fuel the fire i'dd say that I agree with Tim/Steve. Mostly because flamers are indeed suicide, expensive and fragile. So giving them bolt isn't that efficient, not to mention unecessary. If you need to stop tanks flamers don't need bolt, they need coorporation. Remember that they autoglance on 4+ with breath (they are jump so it shouldn't be that hard getting within 8 inches) and all they really need is to stun a vehicle. Hell, even a shaken result is decent since it means less return fire.
But against an army with screamers/fiends or flying princes a stunned or immobilized vehicle is dead vehicle.

 

[Chumbalaya]

I guess we should start from the top then. I figure this is pretty basic stuff, but it's best to get everything down so we're on the same page.

Flamers can do lots of things. They aren't as good as Fiends, nothing is, but in a mono Tzeentch army you make sacrifices for the sake of fluff. Not my bag, but people will do as they like. What they do offer is mobility and versatility. They can fight from 30" or in flamer range, which is useful against a variety of opponents. If all you take is 1 unit of suicide Flamers, then you will of course be limited by that perception. 1 unit is fragile, but what about 3? 3 and 4 Heralds? 3, 4 Heralds and 3 DPs? 3, 4 Heralds, 3 DPs and a bunch of Horrors? They all have bolt, they all have alternate fire, and they are all threatening. This is how a mono Tzeentch list works, if at all. Present so many targets that your opponent cannot possibly handle them all.

1 bolt isn't going to destroy a vehicle. Hell, 3 bolts may not. What they will do is shake, stun and immobilize them. A vehicle not shooting may as well be dead to you for a turn. It works a lot better when you have actual combat units that can take advantage, but Mono Tzeentch makes up with the greater concentration of AT fire and anti-infantry follow ups. Against mech, you suppress the shooty and crack open the transports so you can warpfire/gaze/breath them away.

The problem with Screamers is that they don't do the flexibility thing. They have no alternate purpose. Mono task. Taking them over better units makes target priority much easier for your opponent. He can simply focus on the important stuff that scares him now, then circle the wagons and move 6.1" to let the Screamers whiff on some dinky transport. Then he kills them. An army that picks up screamers is throwing points away, points better spent on actual good units like Fiends. They are usable in a mono Tzeentch list, one that's already filled up it's FOC with units that are useful. They're a poor substitute for the stuff you really need.

 

[Tim/Steve]

I guess we should start from the top then. I figure this is pretty basic stuff, but it's best to get everything down so we're on the same page.

Flamers can do lots of things. They aren't as good as Fiends, nothing is, but in a mono Tzeentch army you make sacrifices for the sake of fluff. Not my bag, but people will do as they like.obviously- your tactics for mono-tzeench show you dont like them... meanwhile I love mine and have taken it to tournies before now: its never going to win but its a fun army that can compete with almost everything What they do offer is mobility and versatility. They can fight from 30" or in flamer range, which is useful against a variety of opponentsthey can't fight from 30".. they can start 30" away and do damage but they'll be <24" if using bolt and close enough for the enemy to move 6" and get into RF range if you use warpfire, for flamers that means game over.. If all you take is 1 unit of suicide Flamers, then you will of course be limited by that perception. 1 unit is fragile, but what about 3? 3 and 4 Heralds? 3, 4 Heralds and 3 DPs? 3, 4 Heralds, 3 DPs and a bunch of Horrors? They all have bolt, they all have alternate fire, and they are all threatening. This is how a mono Tzeentch list works, if at all. Present so many targets that your opponent cannot possibly handle them all. 1500pts for those units and the enemy can kill the 400pts of flamers with ease as soon as they look like becomming a problem. Sure you have some anti-tank but if everything in your army fires at AV11 enemies then you'll get about 4 pen hits and 1.5 glances... so you destroy 2 rhinos, bash up 2 more and havent fired a single shot at any of the enemy infantry... whats worse is that next turn (assuming the enemy infantry havent just erased your army) you now have 2 less enemy transports around but have to start all over again since only the DPs have the strength to destroy any of those damaged transports.

1 bolt isn't going to destroy a vehicle. Hell, 3 bolts may not. What they will do is shake, stun and immobilize them. A vehicle not shooting may as well be dead to you for a turn. It works a lot better when you have actual combat units that can take advantage, but Mono Tzeentch makes up with the greater concentration of AT fire and anti-infantry follow ups. Against mech, you suppress the shooty and crack open the transports so you can warpfire/gaze/breath them away. I'll let you into a little secret- when I play my mono-tzeentch mech lists are what I want to see. Tanks are not a threat to tzeentch, infantry is the big problem. Use bolt to damage or destroy the transports, warpfire and gaze to kill anyone who falls out and then race in with screamers to surround the damage transports to stop people getting out and/or to destroy them either that turn or in the neemy phase- they then become both the closest target to the enemy and the most threatening... so you almost everyone shoots at the cheapest (and 2nd hardest) tzeentch unit in the dex.

The problem with Screamers is that they don't do the flexibility thing. They have no alternate purpose. Mono task. Thats pure bias- they have at least 4 major uses in my army, one of which is combat. They have WS 3, T4 and a 4++, that means that while they can only hold a small unit of marines in combat for 2-3 turns 3 screamers charging a unit of 10 guard equivalents should not only survive but should win the first round... and then hold them in combat for a turn or 2, meaning you can concentrate firepower on another unit without having to worry about the 20-30 lasgun shots raking your flank Taking them over better units makes target priority much easier for your opponent. I lose 1 unit, to get 3 of screamers... thats not a great loss, even if the enemy want to ignore the 3 extra units flying round... which would make me a very happy panda if they did He can simply focus on the important stuff that scares him now, then circle the wagons and move 6.1" to let the Screamers whiff on some dinky transport. Then he kills them. Kills them with what- he's ignoring them remember... and while he's ignoring them my 50pt unit just made his transport move fast enough to not be able to shoot or to get supporting fire from inside... and I still have a ~42% chance of getting a penetrating hit, a ~14% chance of destroying the vehicle that turn and a ~14% chance of stopping the vehicle moving so I can kill it next turn An army that picks up screamers is throwing points away, points better spent on actual good units like Fiends. fiends compete for space with flamers and BCs, which some people like to take. Screamers are the best FA unit by a mile... not that anyone ever runs out of FA slots unless they are screamer fans. A full selection of screamers costs 144pts, so pretty much 1 HoT, 1 simply DP or 1 flamer unit needs to go to make room for them (if you did drop a fiend unit for them, not that I would, you would still have 560ts left over from the 1 dropped unit after getting all the screamers you'll ever need They are usable in a mono Tzeentch list, one that's already filled up it's FOC with units that are useful. They're a poor substitute for the stuff you really need.

Screamers are a serious threat to any vehicles that they face- even against a fast moving vehicle they have a better chance of destroying the target in 1 turn then the bolt off a horror unit. Sure you need to strat within 18" rather then 30" but the screamers are also 1/2 the cost and have a good chance of stopping the vehicle moving next turn which then leads to the enemy radically altering their plan to kill the screamers before they attack or sacrificing their vehicle... and thats if there is no co-operation between my units. The number of times I've only manage to immobalise an enemy vehicle instead of destroying it with my bolts and then had my screamers charge in to finish it is just unreal- the best one I had was bolts immobalising 1 vehicle and stunning the other, my screamers charged, killed the immobalised that turn and the stunned in the next.

The next thing Chum normally pulls out is that they are rubbish against walkers... which is almost total rubbish. 1 unit of screamers isnt going to do very well against a dread, but on every fight Ive ever had with 2 units of screamers vs 1 walker I've always won... against normal dreads that is to be expected, but when I also tell you that it also includes several deff dreads it shows that a lucky 6 or 2 can suddenly kill any enemy walker (I normally throw the screamers into nasty walkers just to hold them up while I bolt nastier targets.. like battlewagons).

I think there has only been 2 games where my screamers havent got their points back in the 80 or so mono-tzeentch games I've played (Im not even going to say the numbers where they've killed 200% or more... 1 LR pretty much puts me there) and of those 2 games the screamers guarenteed that I couldnt lose the game after turn 4: against nids they were just turo-boosting around the board edge, turn 5, 6 and 7 saw 1 unit of screamers jumping to block the enemy objective (and I went second), so while i killed nothing the enemy couldnt stop me from blocking their objective (they couldnt get any shooting in range of the screamers without giving me the game).

 

[Chumbalaya]

Ugh. Let me tell you how this is going to go. You're saying the same things, I'm saying the same things, so this argument is going nowhere. It'll keep on repeating until somebody snaps and gets the thread locked. Now, if you have a new point to make, I'd be happy to see it.

Otherwise we're at the same place. I can bust out the usual argument that moving tank = 6's to hit = combat is useless or that Screamers = free KPs or how No Retreat tends to make Fearless tarpits useless, but it's already been said so brings nothing new to the table.

 

[Tim/Steve]

Ah now if you were to say that screamers gave away cheap KP then I would have to finally admit to you having a point- they are very easy to kill (just as a unit of flamers) and up the number of KP in your army... but its actually repeating something that I said.. not one of your arguments
The worst case scanario for them though is that you shove them in the second half of your list and DS them well clear of the action. In games where the enemy has brought no tanks and we are playing KP I will occasionally do this... sure Ive lost 150pts of my army but they will rarely give away any KP as they are fast enough to stay out of LoS and/or at very long range and this is the worst case scenario... I build my armies for anti-tank so if I find a pure infantry army it wont work perfectly. Although 9 screamers can still be a threat- pull them in close late game and use them all to charge a unit and watch the sparks fly- 18 S4 attacks can do quite a lot of damage to T3 enemies (and should even beat small units of MEQs).

I do love the whole 6's to hit line.. but it makes no more sense now then it did originally, especially when I already discussed it. 3 Screamers needing 6s to hit is more effective then a bolt off a unit of horrors (and nearly as good as a flamer bolt) with the addition that if you do get a stunned/immobalised result then its an almost guarenteed kill... or better yet, and what I've been getting at, is that screamers shouldnt need to hit moving targets- use bolts to slow the enemy and then screamers to destroy them- combined arms... not really all that difficult.

Screamers are good tarpits against enemies with a few, very powerful attacks... such as dreadnaughts. No retreat barely comes into it (as well as already being figured in to my previous post)- 2 attacks off a dreadnaught means an average of 0.6 dead screamers a turn... 6 screamers average 1 hit which will usually do damage, so you wont normally be taking any no retreat wounds whatsoever... but get a little unlucky and you'll have to make a 2 4+ saves, not great, but then with a little luck on your side you blow the dread first turn and you dont even need to care about combat resolution.

While Chum keeps badmouthing one of my favourite units without making gaming sense (either through not playtesting screamers or just being inept with them) I'll keep coming to their defense. I do like taking weak forces and then winning with them (why I play mono-daemon armies, and my beloved Ogres) but screamers arent a handicap, they almost the first choice that goes into my 'hardcore' lists, when Im building a properly nasty list with evil intent.

 

[spawn1990]

They are both useful units but against vehicle im thinking screamers are way forward I normally bring my flamers on from icon and waste squad of terminators then my opponent fires every gun he has at them seeing what they did to his terminators and they are cheap as chips screamers too