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you dont infiltrate stealers at 18" from a shooty army if you dont go first and the rest of your army is 30" away...you do it if you have both a fast army and first turn, if you go for horde of footslogging gants then outflanking is better so you hit the enemy at the same time of the rest of the army, sinergy in both list building and while playing is not an option for nids, not only vs necrons tough.
Nids can't do 'sinergy' [synergy]?

I think synergy is really important for any army, it tends to make the difference between a good list and losing so badly that people will start using your name as a byword for how not to play 40k.
 

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Nids can't do 'sinergy' [synergy]?

I think synergy is really important for any army, it tends to make the difference between a good list and losing so badly that people will start using your name as a byword for how not to play 40k.
I think I'm beginning to see why you thought old Necrons were a hard matchup for Nid.
 

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My math is way off. It is worse that I originally posted. 9 guys don't get FNP. Then 62 twinlinked shots at 24 inches of which 50 hit, 25 wound, 13.5 die after failing their FNP test. Cover saves half of those Unit wiped. 340pts gone. Necrons still sitting at an even 2000.
I honestly can't follow your workings, but allowing the barges to rapid fire out one side (and rapid fire the guys inside, which can't happen since you were 18" away to start but whatever) gives me ~14-15 wounds on the stealers. For the sake of arguement lets take your result at face value.

There are 22 wounds in a full stealer unit, soooo, the combined output from an entire 2000pnt shooty army still leaves a bit under half of the unit.

This is, of course, in the absolute best case scenario for the shooty army of everything being able to fire at one squad, that infiltrated into a spot allowing the opposition army to do so.

And you still didn't come close to killing the unit.

In reality you will be doing very well to get half of your army into position to shoot at the stealers, cutting the wounds suffered down to ~6 (if you are doing VERY well- have you seen the size of ghost arcs?). Heaven forbid you might even suffer a less than average shooting phase?! The 'tactic' you suggest gives no plan B, no contigency should the dice roll anything less than epicly (I suppose "stand still and shoot all my guns" is technically a tactic, but I generally don't consider at a very good one). Mech guard is terrified of this unit, and they have a ton more firepower than the necron equivalent.

The assumptions you make suggest that you have no experience of how the big stealer squad works.

The counter strategies you propose suggest you have no experience of how the big stealer squad works (walking away...nobody has tried that before!).

You're unconcerned dismissiveness makes it obvious that you have no experience of how the big stealer squad works, or Tyranids in general which I feel matches up rather well against Necrons (makes a change for a new codex).

IM(experienced)O, here's how the list you posted should deal with the stealer unit- use the command barges to cock block the squad, limiting it's movement as much as possible while using other anti infantry shooting to whittle them (probably slowly). Ghost Arcs can do the blocking at a pinch (or if he has two giant stealer squads......Aiiiieeeee!?!!?) but the barges are best due to the ability to ignore immobilised results. Each turn the barges can move forward and backwards to swipe the stealers while moving over 6" and making the stealers movement problematic.

How to deal with the rest of the Tyranid army I'll leave up to you.

Personal note:
I can't believe I got pulled back into this thread, but the level of righteous ignorance was getting to me. I'm definately out now.
 

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I honestly can't follow your workings, but allowing the barges to rapid fire out one side (and rapid fire the guys inside, which can't happen since you were 18" away to start but whatever) gives me ~14-15 wounds on the stealers. For the sake of arguement lets take your result at face value.

None of those numbers were using rapid fire.

There are 22 wounds in a full stealer unit, soooo, the combined output from an entire 2000pnt shooty army still leaves a bit under half of the unit.

This is, of course, in the absolute best case scenario for the shooty army of everything being able to fire at one squad, that infiltrated into a spot allowing the opposition army to do so.

Do you have a necron book? That was a best case senario of the list I broke down. It was 73 shots at one target at 24 inches. You evidence earlier was the best case scenario for your genestealers. This is called mathhammer. If you don't want people throwing numbers at you, don't use them yourself.

And you still didn't come close to killing the unit.

Actually, it wiped the unit.

In reality you will be doing very well to get half of your army into position to shoot at the stealers, cutting the wounds suffered down to ~6 (if you are doing VERY well- have you seen the size of ghost arcs?).

I have three of them. Plus command barges and annihilation barges and a tyranid army. It can all fit.

Heaven forbid you might even suffer a less than average shooting phase?!

I did it mathhammer. The same way you showed how awesome genestealers were in CC.

The 'tactic' you suggest gives no plan B, no contigency should the dice roll anything less than epicly (I suppose "stand still and shoot all my guns" is technically a tactic, but I generally don't consider at a very good one). Mech guard is terrified of this unit, and they have a ton more firepower than the necron equivalent.

Mech Guard don't have the weight of shots from the armies I have played. Foot guard might. Are you confusing the two? Actually, the mech guard armies I have played would laugh at that tactic. Though, in one case the guy was being a dick when he heard I played tyranids. It was a ton of tanks with flamers and a core of lascannon guard to take out the big things. Every time I got close, he would move 6 inches on spray my guys.


The assumptions you make suggest that you have no experience of how the big stealer squad works.

I have used them. I think it is a very good tactic actually. Just not here.

The counter strategies you propose suggest you have no experience of how the big stealer squad works (walking away...nobody has tried that before!).

I would say you have little experience against a mech Necron list or one that uses the movement ability of the Necrons. I think you are still thinking in terms of last edition Necron gunlines. They might still exist, but they are not going to be the most competitive lists.

You're unconcerned dismissiveness makes it obvious that you have no experience of how the big stealer squad works, or Tyranids in general which I feel matches up rather well against Necrons (makes a change for a new codex).

Been a tyranid player since the date I joined this site. I think it can match up very well against the new necron list, but I don't think stealershock is even in the top ten best options.

IM(experienced)O, here's how the list you posted should deal with the stealer unit- use the command barges to cock block the squad, limiting it's movement as much as possible while using other anti infantry shooting to whittle them (probably slowly). Ghost Arcs can do the blocking at a pinch (or if he has two giant stealer squads......Aiiiieeeee!?!!?) but the barges are best due to the ability to ignore immobilised results. Each turn the barges can move forward and backwards to swipe the stealers while moving over 6" and making the stealers movement problematic.

IM(experienced)O, if you have a bunch of small vehicles that have relentless and weight of fire. Moving them all six inches and blowing the ever-loving-f*ck out of the stealers would work much better. When you have nine shots a turn that ignore FNP, everything twinlinked, and if you move, 44 other shots that are twinlinked, you have the ability to deal with those stealers and still take care of the rest of the army. Two groups would be harder, but maybe still possible. That level of point investment might weaken the rest of the army though. I am not sure how viable it would be in an all comers list.

A much better strategy would use Nids ranged weapons to open up or wreak those vehicles. Then, once things start falling out, use a combination of flyers, beasts, and fleet to close quickly.

As the list stands, until things start to die, it has an very clear advantage in its 48" bubble. (ie 24' range around each unit.) Before you introduce any units to that fire power, you want to soften it up. So, if you put 20 genestealers in 18 inches of these guys, your are directly playing to the advantage that a Necron player has.

How to deal with the rest of the Tyranid army I'll leave up to you.

Personal note:
I can't believe I got pulled back into this thread, but the level of righteous ignorance was getting to me. I'm definately out now.
I won't even respond to that other than to say that between you both, the level of condescending BS has been astronomical.
 

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Help us Oddjob Kenobi, you're our only hope. :p I have a question for Oddjob and Aramoro. What would you two recommend against Necrons hiding in cover. Init 1 kinda screws us 'nids over.
 

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Help us Oddjob Kenobi, you're our only hope. :p I have a question for Oddjob and Aramoro. What would you two recommend against Necrons hiding in cover. Init 1 kinda screws us 'nids over.
I know you didn't ask me but I figured I could be moderately useful here.

Answer: You hope Move Through Cover grants assault grenades in 6th edition.
 

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I know you didn't ask me but I figured I could be moderately useful here.

Answer: You hope Move Through Cover grants assault grenades in 6th edition.
:goodpost:

The other option is don't assault into cover. I know you think the new nids codex is subpar, but given the three win conditions, Nids can play the objectives and due to Necron's limited range fairly safely ignore and work around that position.

Necron dex has few options beyond 24 inches.
 

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:goodpost:

The other option is don't assault into cover. I know you think the new nids codex is subpar, but given the three win conditions, Nids can play the objectives and due to Necron's limited range fairly safely ignore and work around that position.
Depends on the mission and objective placement, but yeah. If it's multiple objectives and the Necrons are dug in on over half of them you end up needing to assault into cover to win the game unless you go for a risky last minute contest.
 

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Believe me, I do hope that it grants it, it makes no sense for Nids to be screwed by cover to the degree that they are.
 

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Depends on the mission and objective placement, but yeah. If it's multiple objectives and the Necrons are dug in on over half of them you end up needing to assault into cover to win the game unless you go for a risky last minute contest.
I do that sometimes. My last game was against a foot slogging horde of orks. Huge units of 30 boys. I had no chance in CC, so I drew the guy out and whittled him apart. Turn four, walked my biovores into range of his unit camping the objective. Forced a leadership test and got him to run away on the last turn of the game. Got lucky though. I usually try to contest those sort of objectives with non-scoring armor units and keep my troops on the ones I want.

Actually, should have thought of this, because of Necron str 8 spam, warriors are a bad choice, but you can use gargoyles to screen a tyrant with bone swords and lash whips who has tyrant guard. I always run one of these guys with a heavy weapon. I have used him for late game objective contesting on many occasions.

Also, a snotpod with 20 devilguants. Don't take hive commander and hope it doesn't come early. Late game/Mid game, it drops and those 60 shots often clear an objective. They are also scoring. They also cause a -1 if the unit has to take a ld test. Don't count on it, but it is nice:grin:

Don't use this often because it is hit or miss, but a deathleaper can do a late game grab and because of its ability, frig up psychers.

Also, even if I win first turn, I usually let the other guy go first. That way, my objective grabs could end the game on my turn rather than letting them take a round of shooting/assault.

Even if they are in cover though, a four plus save isn't that great against biovores. You get lucky and you are hitting 15 of them. I usually get, if I don't miss, at least 10 on a normal unit.

There are a number of tools in the tyranid toolbox to deal with that sort of situation. Just have to have a well balanced army. A combination of ranged and CC.
 

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There are a number of tools in the tyranid toolbox to deal with that sort of situation. Just have to have a well balanced army. A combination of ranged and CC.
Of course, there definitely are tools. It's just that some of them I wouldn't consider adding into a tournament army (Deathleaper is one example, Biovores are another) due to them taking away value FOC slots (and points to a lesser extent) that could arguably be better used on other things. I don't really want to get into a debate about which Tyranid units are good right now though.
 

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Of course, there definitely are tools. It's just that some of them I wouldn't consider adding into a tournament army (Deathleaper is one example, Biovores are another) due to them taking away value FOC slots (and points to a lesser extent) that could arguably be better used on other things. I don't really want to get into a debate about which Tyranid units are good right now though.
Fair enough. I don't use deathleapers. I am fond of my biovores though. I think the answer to assaulting into cover though is pretty much, don't. Or, bring lash whips if you do.
 

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Help us Oddjob Kenobi, you're our only hope. :p I have a question for Oddjob and Aramoro. What would you two recommend against Necrons hiding in cover. Init 1 kinda screws us 'nids over.
Just assault them anyway probably, yeah the Int 1 is not in your favour, say you have 8 Stealers assaulting 10 Warriors in cover, chances are they'll kill 1 - 2 Stealers. The 6 Stealers will then kill around 4 Warriors so they either Flee and you sweep them or your locked in combat for your opponents turn. In this case being locked in combat is actually the best choice, assuming you don't whiff it you'll win combat in their turn and be free to do whatever. You can not assault into cover but then you just stand around looking like a twat, take it on the chin. It's a numbers games after all.
 

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take it on the chin
What he said.

There are relatively few scenarios where the stealers would thing twice about just assaulting into cover. If in doubt make sure you have FNP and leave a trail back to synapse. Particularly if, like me, you take big old units.

It's a much bigger deal for gants.
 

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That's the thing. The right list won't worry about the cover. Necrons have limited range. So, you build lists around exploiting this. You have three possible win conditions. Two of which are objective.

Harpy with venom cannons and tyrannofex's to go for the vehicles at range. Biovores and warriors with stranglehorn to take potshots at range. Unless the Necron player is using Phaeron, he can't move and shoot worth a damn. So, let him sit in cover. Who cares. The goal isn't to kill, it is to win. Priority targets are doomsday barges. Once they are gone, heavy destroyers and any other range 36 weapons.

Punish the player for using cover. Exploit the weaknesses. Got scarabs, blast templates.

Got wraiths, shoot them with hive guard.

Hit the monolith with MCs.

Shoot the annihilation barge with range 48/36 anti-tank.

Every vehicle is open top.

Stay outside of the range and make him move.

Play the objectives.

In killpoints, take out the vehicles.

In objectives, camp them.

Nids have guns, use them.

With Grey Knights, Dark Eldar, Guard, and now Necrons, if we play the mindless beast, we get pawned.

Control the board and control the movement. It works.

Here is my current all comers, and it has been working.

HQ

Tervigon
TS
AG
Clusterspines
Onslaught

Hive Tyrant
Venom Cannon
Hive Guard

Elites

Hive Guard 3

Hive Guard 3

Zoanthropes 2

Troops

20 Termaguants
Devourers

14 Termagants

Tervigon
TS
AG
Clusterspines
Catalyst

Heavy

Tyrannofex
Rupture Cannon

Tyrannofex
Rupture Cannon

Biovores 3

This is about 2000pts.

The basic idea is don't play their game. They want you to charge. Currently, Nids are at a disadvantage if they do. When move through cover gives us assault grenades, then things will be different, but for now, we got to suck it up.

You have 4 48 inch shots that will do beautiful things to open-topped AV 13.

You have 3 48 inch large blast templates that cause pinning.

You have one 36 inch blast that can pop an AV 13 if you are lucky or instant kill destroyers, wraiths, scarabs, etc

Let them come to you. They move, they don't shot 24 inches.

At 24 inches, you have 12 st 8 shots that you don't need LOS for. Abuse that.

At 24 inches you have 2 AP3 blasts.

At 18 inches you have 2 large blast.

At 18 inches you have 60 shots that if the unit shot at has to take a leadership test, it does so at -1.

And you make your own cover.

I just wanted to follow-up on this. I ended-up using Loki's list and used his tactic against my Necron opponent. Although his list had Doomsday Barges, Heavy destroyers, Spyder Walkers, deathmarks in D/S, a Lord with Wraiths... I used his list and outranged him, kited him for 5 turns, and by the time I came in range of his 24 inch guns, he had lost most of his power and his will to fight went away as well. Especially when all the Termagaunts I spawned in the background waved suddenly forward, supported by the Hive Guards safely still out of LOS.

I don't take away anything from the Genestealers option, but honestly I think that NOT playing the Necron's game gave wonderful results. Thanks for the eye opener Loki.
 

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Protip: Use the Doom of Malanti, the Necron's don't carry any weapons on their infantry that can insta kill him, making him basically unkillable by the Necron Army. Since wounds can now go above 10 (see rulebook) he will walk through the army by himself.

Only some vehicles can hope to instagib him so watch for those with STR 8+ weapons and focus those down with the rest of the army. Remember his ability works each round while he is in CC, meaning he cannot even bog you down.

Of course if you replace the default power and try for Iron Arm then not even a vehicle can stop him.
 

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Of course, everything is LD 10, and since the average roll on 3d6 in 10.5, he won't be as good.
 

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Of course, everything is LD 10, and since the average roll on 3d6 in 10.5, he won't be as good.
You know that, and I know that. However in practice its entirely different, Necrons don't (normally) carry Melta and cannot handle The Doom on average, and The Doom's kit brings everything you need to handle the necrons as well. You can't go wrong dropping 120ish points on him to drop in on a flank and start sucking some souls.
 
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