[OddJob]

Stealershock looks good in numbers.

It's even better in reality, especially since it's only one unit in your army.

However, you need to set up turn two to be effective.

Eh? Stealers infiltrate, i.e. deploy last and closer. They get to see your deployment then stick themselves in the most annoying spot. Against necrons this will probably involve a turn two charge.

The the tervigon has to be in range. It is base almost 300pts and if you take toxin sacs, more than 300.

With large numbers of bods you can very easily leave a trail of bods back to the 18" range of the tervigon catalyst (or 12" if you feel you need to be fearless).

If there is a phaeron in the group, point to point you will die.

If there is a phaeron with the group there is a single combat phase then the warriors are run down and dead, or even worse you pass the Ld2 test (or the stealer player gets clever by stringing out to lower the number of attacks) and you die in the second combat phase.

It will take awhile but when your points ard gone, the necron player will still be alive.

Will somebody else explain how combat works because this is getting silly.

A monolith could wreak all your plans.

I assume you are referring to an old skool monolith wall. Newsflash- infiltrate means you are generally responding to the stealers, not the other way round. The monolith is too slow to be an effective assault blocker, and even if it gets in the way I'll assault it to get an extra 6" movement while moving round it.

Let alone that guy with the staff who might wipe out a large percent of your unit with one wound depending on the FAQ. This is a short list. There are more counters than this and all are cheaper point wise than the stealer horde.

Sigh- you havn't come up with a single counter strategy to what is a very worrying and competitive unit. For what it's worth these are my counter strategies (I play both armies at a high level):

Triarch Stalker tieing them up in cc- stealers hate (HATE) av13 walkers. Open topped makes this more risky than I'd like but if the two units flail handbags for the rest of the game (likely) I'd call this a very fair trade.

Scarab assault blocking- It's going to take 15-16 scarab bases to take a full stealer charge and survive for one combat phase so a farm might be a valid delaying tactic.

Vehicle blocking- a lot of points invested into a wall in the form of arcs or barges. Night sythes run the serious risk of being hive guarded thus putting a hole in your skimmer wall (so use the tougher vehicles).

In reality you'll probably have to use a combination of the above to keep the nastyness at bay.

With that I'm bowing out of this thread. I'm honestly amazed that I've had to spend so long explaining basics.

 

[lokis222]

It's even better in reality, especially since it's only one unit in your army.

Of course it is only one unit in the army.

Eh? Stealers infiltrate, i.e. deploy last and closer. They get to see your deployment then stick themselves in the most annoying spot. Against necrons this will probably involve a turn two charge.

That is where I disagree. Played properly, they will never see CC.

With large numbers of bods you can very easily leave a trail of bods back to the 18" range of the tervigon catalyst (or 12" if you feel you need to be fearless).

Which makes them even less effective.

If there is a phaeron with the group there is a single combat phase then the warriors are run down and dead, or even worse you pass the Ld2 test (or the stealer player gets clever by stringing out to lower the number of attacks) and you die in the second combat phase.

See above. Phaeron means you can move and shoot at 24 inches. If you see combat, your group is useless because it has been shot for two plus turns. You start 18 inches away. I have first tern, I move 6 and shoot 24. If I have 15 footsloggers, that is 7.5 hits. and 3.75 wounds. You might pass one armor save. If you start in cover, you might still lose 2 guys. You move 6 and and run six (most likely moving 9.5 inches. I move back 6 inches and shoot, you have feel no pain, but hey, still kill a guy. You start your turn 21.5 inches away. You move six and run six (most likely getting 9.5). I teleport away using a veil or a monolith and your guy is left holding his dick in his hand, horribly out of position and likely, unable to do much for at least another turn or depending, the rest of the game. 340pts wasted. This is what a good necron player does.

Will somebody else explain how combat works because this is getting silly.

Don't be an asshole. It only makes your reasoning look like the crap it is.

I assume you are referring to an old skool monolith wall. Newsflash- infiltrate means you are generally responding to the stealers, not the other way round. The monolith is too slow to be an effective assault blocker, and even if it gets in the way I'll assault it to get an extra 6" movement while moving round it.

Nope, wasn't talking about that at all.

Sigh- you havn't come up with a single counter strategy to what is a very worrying and competitive unit. For what it's worth these are my counter strategies (I play both armies at a high level):

Oddly, me too. Most of the people I play are tournament players. But hey, at least you have a high opinion of yourself. Personally, I thought your Tyranid FAQ was decent, but Midge's was much, much better. As to Necrons, post your list, let's see if it is as good as you think it is.

Triarch Stalker tieing them up in cc- stealers hate (HATE) av13 walkers. Open topped makes this more risky than I'd like but if the two units flail handbags for the rest of the game (likely) I'd call this a very fair trade.

So your strategy is hope they don't glance.... ? :laugh:

Scarab assault blocking- It's going to take 15-16 scarab bases to take a full stealer charge and survive for one combat phase so a farm might be a valid delaying tactic.

Huge waste of resources.

Vehicle blocking- a lot of points invested into a wall in the form of arcs or barges. Night sythes run the serious risk of being hive guarded thus putting a hole in your skimmer wall (so use the tougher vehicles).

See Above.

In reality you'll probably have to use a combination of the above to keep the nastyness at bay.

With that I'm bowing out of this thread. I'm honestly amazed that I've had to spend so long explaining basics.

Your strategies sucks.

You are either a crap Necron player or you have used your Nids against crap Necron players.

Personally, I am with Darklove, you and Aramoro are probably just trolling. Pretty normal behaviour from Aramoro, but a first for you.

My strategy would be and this is a shocker: Don't let the genestealers see combat, ever.

With the new Necron book, this is really very easy.

1.A cheap veil of darkness could render stealershock useless.

2. A Nightscythe.

3. A monolith.

4. Vanguard.

Almost every list will have one of the above.

Use what you already have to tie up 340pts of waste. As a strategy, I like it. Since both you and the rager are a bit obtuse, I will explain how 1 through 4 work.

1. Teleport away when stealers get close.

2. Embark and go somewhere else.

3. Teleport away.

4. Teleport away.

I realize it is really hard to get behind ideas that are not attempts to mathhammer results to your ends, but here is something that will help.

Number of models dead if genestealers don't get CC = 0.
Combative efficiency = 0%

Obviously, this won't always work, but it will more often than the stealer shock.

Next time, don't be a dick. I lost a lot of respect for you.

 

[lokis222]

Add to that the C'tan that allows you to redeploy units after infiltrate. Haven't tested its usefulness yet, but it could be a winner.

 

[Aramoro]

Normal for me to troll? Bitch please.

I always aim to be helpful but in the face of blinding wrongness such as yourself it's hard to hold it all inside. The thrust of this thread is Necrons suck unbelievably hard in Close Combat, Nids are good at getting into combat. Your argument is nothing but 'no but then I would have this, then this, then my opponent would play like a cretin' now that is not an argument. Like in your Phaeron example the stealers start 18" away so you must walk backwards off the board by your second move, when you post things like that you have to forgive us for thinking you have no idea what you're doing.

Personally as a Daemon player and two of my regular opponents being Nids I know how much a pain in the ass an AV13 walker is to Stealers.

 

[lokis222]

Normal for me to troll? Bitch please.

I always aim to be helpful but in the face of blinding wrongness such as yourself it's hard to hold it all inside. The thrust of this thread is Necrons suck unbelievably hard in Close Combat, Nids are good at getting into combat. Your argument is nothing but 'no but then I would have this, then this, then my opponent would play like a cretin' now that is not an argument. Like in your Phaeron example the stealers start 18" away so you must walk backwards off the board by your second move, when you post things like that you have to forgive us for thinking you have no idea what you're doing.

Personally as a Daemon player and two of my regular opponents being Nids I know how much a pain in the ass an AV13 walker is to Stealers.

Actually, the thread is Tyranid Tactics vs Necrons. Either way, stealershock will fail against any competent Necron player.

There is a big board and multiple directions to move or redeploy. Because any competent necron player will know stealershock, they can easily deploy to avoid it or use common additions to the normal necron lists to get out of its way. It is a crap strategy for the reasons I have already outlined.

It will work if the necron player is incompetent.

 

[Aramoro]

It's not really that big a board once you've deployed, the most movement you've got is lateral movement which may take you further away from the stealers but not everything else. Also you're deploying 15 footslogging necrons so you've already failed 40K 101.

 

[lokis222]

It's not really that big a board once you've deployed, the most movement you've got is lateral movement which may take you further away from the stealers but not everything else. Also you're deploying 15 footslogging necrons so you've already failed 40K 101.

My win record says you wrong. My current necron list is under All Comers Competative 2000pts Refined. I wouldnt be worried about stealershock at all. The tyranid list I posted earlier was my counter to this list.

A necron army is small, it has a lot of room to move. Tyranids need to control the board and make the opponent react. Using stealershock will have the tyranid player chasing the necrons all game unless the necron player is functionally useless.

 

[lokis222]

Either way, you are obviously clueless. Your only arguments have been insults to people's intelligence in an attempt to try to invalidate their ideas. Whenever I see you post I get this mental image of a midget screaming abuse at people while jumping up and down.

A normal necron toolbox will have the same ease avoiding the stealers as the list I mentioned last post.

edit: spelling; typing on small cellphones is hard.

 

[Aramoro]

I am quite sure your internet win/loss ratio against top tier tourney lists is very impressive as is everyone's. I'm quite sure you're 100 - 0 against all comers in the month the books been out. But in the end your arguments make no sense, there's just no logic to your arguments as all your counters involve just adding another unit and assuming your opponent doesn't.

Oddjob has a proven track record with Nids as you can read. His points make sense and reflect well what actually happens in games. So like him I am out of this one as I can see it's a pointless continuing. You've reduced this to just making Ad hominin attacks which only shows up the fragility of your opinion.

Oh and Congrats on the 6 annihilation victories you surely got whilst I was posting this.

 

[lokis222]

I am quite sure your internet win/loss ratio against top tier tourney lists is very impressive as is everyone's. I'm quite sure you're 100 - 0 against all comers in the month the books been out. But in the end your arguments make no sense, there's just no logic to your arguments as all your counters involve just adding another unit and assuming your opponent doesn't.

Oddjob has a proven track record with Nids as you can read. His points make sense and reflect well what actually happens in games. So like him I am out of this one as I can see it's a pointless continuing. You've reduced this to just making Ad hominin attacks which only shows up the fragility of your opinion.

Oh and Congrats on the 6 annihilation victories you surely got whilst I was posting this.

Still insulting. I would expect nothing less from you.

Yet, I have given some very solid ways for a normal necron army to render stealershock useless. Ways that most armies have without having to tailor their lists. My argument is it is a waste of points. A few pages ago, I even posted a strategy and a list that I thought would be much better than stealershock.

 

[paolodistruggiuova]

@lokis: Deploy a 15warrior unit+ veil of darkness on a flank, then your opponent infiltrate a stealer unit opposite to them with a tervigon, then he run 2 turns to close the gap, then you DS away and they stand there doing nothing for the rest of the game.
This is a good strategy to beat a 6years old kid at his first WH40k game probably.

Now on topic, nearly any nids unit munch trough necrons in HtH, so the best tactic imho is to bring either fast elements (harpies, ymgarls, infiltrating stealers) or swamp the board with gants (dont let them anyway to run), the stealershock tactic is good against necrons provided you have enough other threats to control the board, if by turn 3 the necron player dont have anyway to run to avoid CC then you did it right

 

[lokis222]

@lokis: Deploy a 15warrior unit+ veil of darkness on a flank, then your opponent infiltrate a stealer unit opposite to them with a tervigon, then he run 2 turns to close the gap, then you DS away and they stand there doing nothing for the rest of the game.
This is a good strategy to beat a 6years old kid at his first WH40k game probably.


Now on topic, nearly any nids unit munch trough necrons in HtH, so the best tactic imho is to bring either fast elements (harpies, ymgarls, infiltrating stealers) or swamp the board with gants (dont let them anyway to run), the stealershock tactic is good against necrons provided you have enough other threats to control the board, if by turn 3 the necron player dont have anyway to run to avoid CC then you did it right

I think it will be a little more versatile than that. There are a number of static armies going up on the Necron army list board, but quite a few of them are looking at being able to move fast. Not as fast as Dark Eldar. But still faster than most tyranids.

If you get lucky and get into CC, you will win. Necron suck at close combat, but getting there will involve a lot of luck.

Okay, can we look at this from the point of view of actual necron lists? Also, to mods, I am not sure dissecting a list like this is okay. If it isn't please let me know and I will delete it.

It's not mine, but I think it is pretty good.

HQ

Necron Overlord
- Warscythe
- Tachyon Arrow
- Command Barge w/Gauss Cannon
-- 210 pts

Per turn two shots at 24 inches, ap 3. Trygon, harpy, tervigon hunter. Also, fast skimmer. If he doesn't shoot, he can move 24 inches, get a cover save and hit any unit up to 3 times. Moving flat-out, he hits on a four plus with a strength 7 armour ignoring weapon. He also has a one shot st10 weapon.

Necron Overlord
- Warscythe
- Tachyon Arrow
- Command Barge w/Gauss Cannon
-- 210 pts
As above.
Royal Court
- 4x Crypteks
- 3x Harbingers of Destruction
36 inch st8 ap2
- Solar Pulse x1
not a huge concern for nids.
- 1x Harbinger of the Storm
not a huge concern
-- 160 pts

Royal Court
- 3x Crypteks
- 3x Harbingers of Destruction
as above
- Solar Pulse x1
-- 125 pts

Elites

Triarch Stalker
-- 150 pts

flame template, twin linking everything that shoots at that unit afterwards. Or a 24 inch melta. same twin linking effect.

Triarch Stalker
- TL Heavy Gauss Cannon
-- 165 pts

Same as above except it is a 36 inch st 9 ap 2

Troops

Warriors x5
- Ghost Ark
-- 180 pts
five shots left, five shots right and five shots anywhere you want them at 24inches.
Warriors x5
- Ghost Ark
-- 180 pts

Warriors x5
- Ghost Ark
-- 180 pts

Warriors x5
- Ghost Ark
-- 180 pts

Heavy Support

Annihilation Barge
- Gauss Cannon
-- 90 pts
24 inch st 7 that can hit other units if he rolls lucky. add to that four shots. plus two shots of the above at st6 that doesn't jump to other units.
Annihilation Barge
- Gauss Cannon
-- 90 pts

Annihilation Barge
- Gauss Cannon
-- 90 pts

2000 pts even.

At infinite range, this guy is putting out two str 10 shots, once per game.

At 36 inches, this guy is putting out 6 st 8 shots and one twin linked str 9.

At 24 inches, this guy is putting out 2 str 8 melta shots, 60 gauss, 12 str 7 arcing tesla that wounds more lucky rolls and 6 str 6 tesla, which wounds more on lucky rolls to wound. Sorry, and 4 more ap3 shots from the command barges.

At twelve inches, all gauss doubles.

So, at 24 inches, 93 shots at BS 4 can shoot. Given the size of the army table wise, it is possible to have them all do that.

Take out the two str 10 one shots. That is 91 shots at 24 inches. The stalker shoots with its twin-linked gun with its 88% chance to hit. If it does, everything is twin-linked to it. If it misses, the other stalker shoots its two melta shots, being bs 4, there is an 88% chance one of those will hit. That is when that stealershock you are so proud of suddenly sucks up wounds to disappear. 87 twin-linked shots with an 88% chance to hit. Of those, six instantly kill the stealers and they don't get feel no pain. You are down to 14 genestealers and 81 shots left. 65 of them wound and no armor save allowed. So, you roll you feel no pain and take 32.5 wounds. If you have cover, 16.25 dead. No more scary genestealers.

This is gross overkill, so what is likely to happen, is that stealershock group will be hit till it is a joke and then the rest of the army turns on whatever else is in range.

Every turn, everything within twenty four inches will be treated like this.

Edit: Of those shots, because of the ghostark rules, only ten per ark can be shot at one target. Apologies. Bring down the number by 20 possible shots at one target per turn. 73 rather than 93.

So 50 hits, 25 wounds and 13.5 dead.

Edit Edit: Doesn't include the extra wounds all that tesla can give you.

Edit Edit Edit: My math is way off. It is worse that I originally posted. 9 guys don't get FNP. Then 62 twinlinked shots at 24 inches of which 50 hit, 25 wound, 13.5 die after failing their FNP test. Unit wiped. 340pts gone. Necrons still sitting at an even 2000.

 

[lokis222]

Conclusion: You need a better strategy.:victory:

 

[paolodistruggiuova]

...
Edit Edit Edit: My math is way off. It is worse that I originally posted. 9 guys don't get FNP. Then 62 twinlinked shots at 24 inches of which 50 hit, 25 wound, 13.5 die after failing their FNP test. Unit wiped. 340pts gone. Necrons still sitting at an even 2000.

First: again you seem to think that for some strange unknown tactic the nid will put the stealers in front of your entire army so that they're all in range and LoS to shoot them but lets assume that's ok.
Second: so 1660 points of tyranids (probably only 1200 cause of the standard hive guards) are now in your face, good luck with killing nids in HtH even with nearly double the points oh and they autohit your vehicles cause you obviously didnt move anything to max out your shots right?

Conclusion: You need a better strategy.:victory:

Mathhammering that your entire army can kill 1 unit a turn at 24'' isnt really that impressive, i still like necrons and I think they can give a hard time to tyranids, It's just not that simple staying out of combat tough.

 

[Aramoro]

First: again you seem to think that for some strange unknown tactic the nid will put the stealers in front of your entire army so that they're all in range and LoS to shoot them but lets assume that's ok.
Second: so 1660 points of tyranids (probably only 1200 cause of the standard hive guards) are now in your face, good luck with killing nids in HtH even with nearly double the points oh and they autohit your vehicles cause you obviously didnt move anything to max out your shots right?



Mathhammering that your entire army can kill 1 unit a turn at 24'' isnt really that impressive, i still like necrons and I think they can give a hard time to tyranids, It's just not that simple staying out of combat tough.

You might as well give up here paolodistruggiuova, this is where tactics threads go to die, and anyway Lokis has probably cracked out 16 more flawless victories since he posted his list.

 

[darklove]

Traditionally, Nids have always struggled against Necrons. The New Necrons are much more deadly than they used to be, so why should Tyranids now find it easier than before?

This is not logical.

 

[lokis222]

Mathhammering that your entire army can kill 1 unit a turn at 24'' isnt really that impressive, i still like necrons and I think they can give a hard time to tyranids, It's just not that simple staying out of combat tough.

My average model count for my horde army sits at around eighty models at 2000pts, which usually includes two tervigons. I find that kind of firepower intimidating and worth considering when building counter-tactics. You are obviously a better player than I am.

 

[lokis222]

You might as well give up here paolodistruggiuova, this is where tactics threads go to die, and anyway Lokis has probably cracked out 16 more flawless victories since he posted his list.

It's not my list. It is Boc's list. I put it up because I think it is good, solid Necron list.

 

[lokis222]

First: again you seem to think that for some strange unknown tactic the nid will put the stealers in front of your entire army so that they're all in range and LoS to shoot them but lets assume that's ok.
Second: so 1660 points of tyranids (probably only 1200 cause of the standard hive guards) are now in your face, good luck with killing nids in HtH even with nearly double the points oh and they autohit your vehicles cause you obviously didnt move anything to max out your shots right?

If they infiltrate, they will probably be within 18". This discussion came about because of Oddjob's tactic that he posted.

The above is what would happen to a genestealer group that infiltrated within 18" of a solid necron list. This means that, if the Necron player goes first, at the start of your first turn, you could be down 340pts. You are not in the Necron players face. If you are lucky, the Necron player frigged up his deployement and you might be able to get some flyers in B2B with the tanks. If not, your turn will be hugging cover, moving forward, and crossing you fingers

Having a circle jerk about how great Nids are in H2H is not a tactics thread. A tactics thread is where you discuss ways to stop Necrons.

What tyranids need are tactics to deal with those tanks in a way that preserves their army and strips the enemy of theirs.

 

[paolodistruggiuova]

you dont infiltrate stealers at 18" from a shooty army if you dont go first and the rest of your army is 30" away...you do it if you have both a fast army and first turn, if you go for horde of footslogging gants then outflanking is better so you hit the enemy at the same time of the rest of the army, sinergy in both list building and while playing is not an option for nids, not only vs necrons tough.