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Skimmers run amok vs nids. Dont see this list doing very well as speeders, falcons, devilfish etc are very hard for you to take down, especially once the fex's are dead.
 

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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
true, speeders are THE reason for having fex's at all. They are the only thing nids have capable of pinging them each turn to slow them down. I think Nids will usually own mixed eldar and tau lists and only true mech or maxed vs hoard are to be a big issue
 

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jigplums said:
true, speeders are THE reason for having fex's at all. They are the only thing nids have capable of pinging them each turn to slow them down.
or lots of S4 hormaguants i remind you.
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
I wa more referring to skimmer tanks and the like. Falcons, railheads that kinda thing
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 ·
Youve used nids at the Gt how do u think the list compare to yours with regards to what its likely to face?
 

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Personally i have always thought, and seen that Nids tend to work best when they are maxed to one end of the spectrum.

Hordes do great against anything that isn't skimmer/tank spam, they swamp the foe with superior numbers and in a tourney where ppl prepare to fight MEQ half thier list is wasted.

Godzilla goes the other way and deals with armour VERY effectivly. It has the wounds and durability to take down even the toughest skimmer/tank army though it fears the marine horde (or similar) as it just can't kill that many tough troops.

Mix armies seem to fail IMO been too much of a jack of all trades. This has always been my sentiment and also been the trend. That is until Joe came top 10 with his essentailly mixed force.

What he did is take the strenghts of my army (he had 2 big HG units and 3 BIG guant units - talking 16 each which is the horde - also had some gargoyles) then added in the best parts of a Godzilla list (2 Gunfex's with extra wound and a mean fly tyrant with devourer and scyth) to deal with tanks. He then filled the list with common choice safe units like 2 ravners for objectives and cheeky IC snipe, Zoes for Synapse and the odd uber shot, and leaping warriors for synapse and maybe CC.

This worked awesomely for him, a good approach that bascially melded the best of the best together without compromise.

Looking over your lists you are almost there at times, 3 glaring things though IMO.

Reliance on elite troops (stealers, raveners and warriors) - these boys will get the full force of the enemies attention. To me i have never seen someone effectivly use stealers and the like in large numbers at a tounrey. PPL aint mugs and will go after them like flies on very very smelly cheese (see resited the obvious sweary answer). Evne taking them in small numbers is a risk as your opponent can just chuck a little fire once to deal with them. Ravners are a bit better as your opponent ends up wasting shots on them as theya re low wound. Warriors unfortunatly you will probably need for syanpse cover unless you go Tyrant. Stealers though are easy meat/VPs at the GT - believe me. Would you let stealers live more than 2 turns?

Syanpse: One list has no syanapse (4 warriors and 2 zoes are never gonna last) and the other has almost all warriors. Havng too little synapse is BAD. Even fexs are afected now, you need, i hav found at least 5/6 syanpse units in your army to maintain coverage throughout a game as ppl know to kill the syanpse. Now the other list has bucket loads of warriors, good we have coverage, but as i said above how much AP4/5 weapons are there that can chuck horrendeous ammounts of fire at them? Warrirors unfortunalty melt very quickly - its why the massed warrior army has never succeded at GT. Tyrants and Broodlord are great survivable syanpse models. Tyrants for been tough and broodlords for having at least 8 wounds (broodlord and 5 stealers min). They stay around longer, keeping your coverage.

Lastly unit size. You guants ned to be BIG. 12 just aint that many. I always aim for at least 60 guants in my army. Thats on average 2:1 vs MEQ lists foot for foot model. They are the kind of odds you need to be able to do anything to MEQ. Also currently you have little mid ranged, anti AV10 (i mean tornado) power. Fleshborers are the answer and unless you invest in a load of high S devourers - take all your guants as termaguants.

Does this help? Do you disagree?
- could easy make this into a tactica.
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
Hive Tyrant [wings, 2 x Twin-linked devourers, Enhanced senses, Toxin Sacs, Flesh hooks, Implant Attack]

Broodlord[Implant attack, Toxin sacs, Flesh Hooks]
5 genestealers[extended carapace, fleshhooks]

4 Tyranid warriors[Leaping, Extended Carapace, Rending claws 2x scything talons, 2 x Rending claws]

Lictor 80

8 Borerguants[scuttlers] 64
12 spinegaunts[scuttlers]
12 spinegaunts[scuttlers]
8 Hormagaunts[toxinsacs] 96
4 Ripperswarms[leaping, Toxin sacs] 56

3 Zoanthropes[warpblast, Synapse]
Carnifex [Venom Cannon, Barbed strangler, Enhanced senses, Reinforced Chitin]
Carnifex [Venom Cannon, Barbed strangler, Enhanced senses, Reinforced Chitin]

This is what a standard kind of list i would play usually looks like, give or take,
 

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OK looking at that list:

Hive Tyrant [wings, 2 x Twin-linked devourers, Enhanced senses, Toxin Sacs, Flesh hooks, Implant Attack]

Swap one set of devourers for Sycthing talons and then give him +1WS and +1I over +1BS (you are twinlinked remember). Tyrants, especailly flying ones, want to be in CC to really dish it out. So let him be good at that.

Broodlord[Implant attack, Toxin sacs, Flesh Hooks]
5 genestealers[extended carapace, fleshhooks]


good though if possible i would take an extra stealer to keep round number for scoring purposes. Also give your broodlord Carapace above Implant as he will pretty much kill and IC he comes near - especially with those stealers helping. But the increases save will help you vs shooting if he is target via torrent (or ends up alone) and in CC when little gits some how land wounds on you.

4 Tyranid warriors[Leaping, Extended Carapace, Rending claws 2x scything talons, 2 x Rending claws

Not sure what you mean by this but i'm guessing the standard 35pt warrior build i take (scyth and rend). Good choice but try not to over estimate thier CC potential. They need support in combat as thier low WS and S will slow them down.

Lictor 80

Good call for the re-roll with your tmc's and raveners.


8 Borerguants[scuttlers] 64
12 spinegaunts[scuttlers]
12 spinegaunts[scuttlers]
8 Hormagaunts[toxinsacs] 96
4 Ripperswarms[leaping, Toxin sacs] 56


right remember what i keep saying about guant unit sizes? make then 12-16 strong (pref 16). Also keep them cheap dude - scuttlers in increasing the pts in a unit which will rarely if ever still be scoring at the end of the game. Invest those points in making your really good units better, not polishing shit so to speak.
Again Hormaguants need to be 12-16 and having at least 2 uints of for redundancy as they will get shot at.
Rippers: good fun at home but remember at the GT they can't take any biomorphs. Also its more points in non-scoring units, invest them elsewhere dude.

3 Zoanthropes[warpblast, Synapse]
Carnifex [Venom Cannon, Barbed strangler, Enhanced senses, Reinforced Chitin]
Carnifex [Venom Cannon, Barbed strangler, Enhanced senses, Reinforced Chitin]


yep cool, perfext, nothing to really say here.
 

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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
To be honest this is more the kind of list i would be likely to take, tweeked a bit, the first two were more theory lists. as a gt list i would probably drop the rippers, hormies and borer gaunts in favour of more spinegaunts.

what do you mean abouut rippers not being able to take biomorphs? the thing in the rules pack is referring to making your own hive fleet under the old codex.

also i'm not sure if i would worry about the broodlord in the gt as he is very dependent on terrain, and many armies at the gt are fairly mobile and can move away from him. He can work well with the winged tyrant and scuttle gaunts as you can create a net around the opp which is hard to get out of.
 

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Asked brain this 2 years back when i was designing my nids and he says yes its wording is out of date but it still stands that Rippers are fixed - therefore no upgrades. For some reason he has visions of ppl bringing ridiculous ripper armies of doom - though who would have the money?
 

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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
who would care :) if someone wants uber rippers i say let them :) In fact i would love it someone did and they somehow managed to win the GT with em. Converted Ripper tyrant leading the force :)

Did u find the Broodlord was worth it? i know he did ok vs me and jez but we were both cc armies. Most games i use him he works well to draw fire, deployed in 4+ cover he attracts alot of attention.
 

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the broodlord is ace - he cause terror in all opponents tbh.

Basically he'll make ppl worry over terrain near thier army and (hopefully) make them clump together around an area with little cover near by. Or (just as good) spread themselves thin across thier DP to try and cover every angle.

Then sticking him down will force ppl to move away an/or start pouring masses of fire into him. Provided you don't make the mistake (like i did against you) of letting him and his bodyguard get AP4'd the stealers will absorb enough wounds to deliver him into the enemy army. His stealers have never still been scoring when i play but i t don't matter when he eats his points back. H will rip the arse hole out of everything up to a bloodthrister/gliave prince. only beware of BIG squads with fists. But then you should hopefully have other parts of your army - like guants to help deal with them.
 

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No, 4D6 - god you tau players never get anything right do you? Forgetting you can fleet while falling "back", FarsHite has Ork Hunters pref rules, Flame On is L33t over Spikeyclub.....

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
 

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Ok, I'm going to throw my opinion in here, as the topic seems to be veering off.

With any GT list you need to be able to do what nids do best (Eat things) at speed, and against any opponent. Having gotten that obligatory obvious statement out of the way, I'll look at what could be the winning combo in my opinion.

Everything survives longer if it takes longer to kill. Obvious I know, but needed to be said. The best way to achieve this? Ablative wounds. And this means spinegaunts. Take at least two units of them as they are cheap, fire TL Assault weapons and can throw a lot of attacks if used correctly. They also move fleet so are fast at getting closer to the enemy. They can't hurt armoured stuff (vehicles) but they can mince anything infantry. People often underestimate Spines and ignore them only to find that one unit has just killed half of thier terminators (A favourite experience of mine... oft repeated), so these guys are essential.

Distraction. Keep the enemy distracted with solo raveners kitted with Devourers and rending claws. These guys can't be reduced to lower than half strength as to do so kills them so they can always capture stuff even when wounded, and with the ability to shoot 6 devourer shots and then assault with 5 rending attacks? Yep, solo raveners tooled just so, rock. Take two then keep them harassing the enemy lines. He'll be forced to give them attention and therefore save the rest of the army from dying. If they die? So what? The army survives. If they dont, they kill things rather well.

Anti Armour. No matter which way you view this, you will have trouble with nids. I prefer to go with the Zoanthropes and maybe Tyrants with the relevant shooty death, but they cost points. Ultimately you need some anti armour and its your call as to how to spend points. I tend to take the obligatory few units, but generally thats it. I may kit a fex out or give a tyrant something and then use them to jit the necessary targets, but I know where my strength lies, and try to use that in close combat. Granted some units such as skimmers will cause problems, but that is what lots of dice were invented for. Get your rending units in there and roll buckets of dice and the rest will come your way.

On that note... Stealers. You need them. Too useful to not take, and you need to get the numbers right too, as too many gives away points. I take unit of 8 and one of 7 to accompany the broodlord, who behaves in the distraction manner as above. These guys rend everything to death and are too good not to take.

I know this hasn't been analytical as such, but I hope to help you out in a direction rather than a defeat all with this specific combo list kind of help, as thats rather less useful in my opinion.

Here's my 1500 point list for your inspection. It's not GT geared but it would fare well nonetheless.

HQ:
Hive Tyrant with Lash Whip and Bonesword, Scything Talons, Extended Carapace.
123 points.
This baby was taken to give some survivable synapse control, and also because I like the model. Plus, he can support units with the Bonesword and its inherent Catalyst power. And in combat he hits hard.

HQ:
Broodlord, as he comes, with 7 Genestealers who have Extended Carapace (I checked the book a few times, it seems I didn't have to upgrade the Broodlord to match the 'stealers, so I left it)
250 points
This mean little git was selected so that I could infiltrate him and cause problems from the start. His intimidation factor is bound to divert some firepower away from the rest of my army, thus improving it's survivability. Assuming he survives to make it into combat, he's going to destroy whatever he hits. Lovely. Oh, and he is synapse too. Bargain.

Elites:
3 Tyranid Warriors, all with Spinefists, 2 with Scything Talons, 1 with Rending Claws, Toxin Sacs, Symbiote Rippers, Extended Carapace
88 points
Cheap and cheerful synapse control with a bit of survivabiity too. These guys have a set of Rending Claws in there to help out against any tough opponents or vehicles they come across. They mainly aim to keep the Gaunts in line whilst using them as a screen.

Elites:
3 Tyranid Warriors, all with Spinefists, 2 with Scything Talons, 1 with Rending Claws, Toxin Sacs, Symbiote Rippers, Extended Carapace
88 points
As above.

Troops:
16 Hormagaunts: 160 points
15 Hormagaunts: 150 points
I took these guys because I love them. They are so fast that they can get into combat on turn one against a foolish opponent and when the dice are on my side. And they roll a lot of dice on the attack too, especially with the leaping rule allowing all models within 3" to contribute thier full attacks. More dice equal more kills...

Troops:
16 Spinegaunts: 80 points
16 Spinegaunts: 80 points
I took them because they hit almost every time they shoot what with having Twin Linked weapons and they are so cheap that they are begging to be taken to boost my numbers.

Troops:
16 Devourergaunts: 112 points
I take these because they are always underestimated. Rolling 2 shots each, at S2 might not sound a lot, but with the Living Ammunition special rule these guys almost always cause more casualties than thier S2 might suggest. That and they have an 18" range to shoot with, so they can start earlier than other 'nids. Handy to take and again, to boost numbers.

Troops:
8 Genestealers with Extended Carapace: 160 points
I take these beacuse they are the scariest troops in the game. People hate them with a passion and with good reason. They hit hard and fast. And with Extended Carapace they last a hell of a lot longer for the points you pay. Never leave home without it!

Fast Attack:
1 Ravener with Rending Claws and Thorax Mounted Devourer
50 points
This solo guy is taken because of the above ravener tactics.

Fast Attack:
1 Ravener with Rending Claws and Thorax Mounted Devourer
50 points
As above.

Heavy Support:
Carnifex with 2 pairs of Scything Talons, Tusks, Bioplasma and Adrenal Glands for both WS and I.
129 points


Oh and stealers and warriors? Always take Extended Carapace. The survivor rate is well worth the points.

Indra
 

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Discussion Starter · #39 ·
the real probs with your list at the gt would be escalation, where alot of you army wouldn't show at the start and your synapse would likely die in the first or second turn, unless you hide it, but then your not moving forwards, so your gaunts are going to be limited as to where they can move. In escalation if your fex comes on in turn 2 and the game doesn't have a 7th turn then he wont even reach the enemy deployment zone. You definately have a hoard army but in half the games the opp can take it on piece-meal. A walking tyrant is a sitting target and in escalation is definately no optimal. Sure rending stuff can charge tanks, but if your opp has 3 hammerheads, are they ever going too?
 

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Whilst I concur with your reply, I ought to mention that Terrain is something I failed to mention. Escalation aside, clever use of the alvailable terrain with this list makes it very unpleasant to face. But the way i see it is this:

You can't overcome every obstacle by the definition of your list, so simply carry on with your 'theme' as it were. Whilst I may not fare well in an escalation game with this list as is, I wouldn;t bank on it letting me down either. After all, the most escalate oriented army can still suffer at the hands of the dice, so I think that all things said, develop a list that can do what it does best (I don't think that mine features in the min/max category of this approach) and let the dice decide how you do in the games that you may not be so well suited to. Tactics can go a long way to compensating for this kind of problem, and this comes from knowing your list well.

If for example my list fails to arrive as I would prefer, then I know my Tyrant faces death, so I'd make sure that when it inevitably comes, it has cost the opponent a lot of his firepower, by using terrain for cover saves and to block LOS. My infiltrators can do the rest as the turns wear on, as long as I make sure that the units that will most likely be targetted cost the opponent more than his fair share of firepower then the rest of the force as it arrives can do what it does best, although, lets remember that any army you face that can shoot as much as this theoretical opponent will fare well in this scenario anyway.

Basically I think I best shush now I'm rambling a bit, but the point remains. You cant cover every base, as the dice will see to that, but if you design according to what suits you, and use the resources available in each game (terrain, luck, common sense and tactics) well then you will get on fine.

Hope I made more sense this time.

Indra
 
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