[sir_m1ke]

Hey all

so iv bn watching the varied discussions (read: whining sessions) over at warseer and hav become increasingly frustrated at some of the conclusions reached. I stil dont post there due to the whiny bitchy replies you always get, so wanted to start a few threads over here and see what you all think. plus the warhammer section here is like the land of the dead here, there is a new edition people! get excited!! :ireful2:

so my first thoughts are on the very exciting and interesting spell from the Lore of Beasts "Transformation of Khadon". For anyone "not in the know" this spell transforms your wizard into a variety of different monsters, from a Manticore up to a Great Fire Dragon.

On warseer a discussion started about how this affects wizards with specific special rules, and whether they retain those effects when the spell is cast. Im a Lizzie player so ill use the Slann as an example. If my slann has Higher State of Consciousness (therefore can only be wounded by magical attacks) and transforms into a monster, is he still only affected by magical attacks??

The rulebook states "while transformed, the wizard cannot channel or cast spells, and all of his magical items and mundane equipment temporarily stop working"

At no point does it mention any special rules, and yet on warseer those "in the know" claim that all special rules and abilities are lost as well. the rulebook says this NOWHERE :threaten: so a few points:

1) by my reading my slann-dragon can only be affected by magical attacks

2) he cannot cast spells, but he can stil dispel and so therefore i still benefit from my +4 to dispel

3) any other disciplines such as MR(3), Becalming Cogitation and the regeneration still apply to the model

4) the model is stil cold blooded and also my general, and as a monster gets a boost to his leadership bubble

ok heretics, have at ye! discuss/argue/flame away. i am by no means saying i am 100% correct but this is my interpretation of the rules i have in front of me and maybe, jus maybe, i have a chance at my awesome-general-ghost-froggie-dragon of doom! :biggrin:

 

[Tim/Steve]

RAW- you still maintain the special rules associated with your model pre-transformation. You cannot channel dispel dice, which rather implies you cannot dispel, but nothing actually says you cant.


There really isnt anything RAW wise to argue against special rules affecting the model... but I still wouldnt claim them, its just wrong. Very very wrong.
There are several things Ive come accross in the game which I think are just loop-holes, and I recon this is just one of them. You can use it if you want but thats not how I think or like to play... for example, changing Teclis into a greater fire dragon and then claiming ASF because he's still a HE is not really in the spirit of the game: the HE is gone, you are now a greater fire dragon, of course you dont have ASF.

In the end its down to what sort of player you are, how you want to be seen by other players, and how you see yourself... you can get away with using Kadon with special rules, but I only really know 1 gamer in the flesh who would actually try to pull it.

 

[Alex]

1) by my reading my slann-dragon can only be affected by magical attacks

Since they are chosen upgrades, I would expect that be ruled as an item or equipment as it's not a standard special rule for that unit type. So any attack can harm him. That's the disadvantage of turning into a monster, I suppose.

2) he cannot cast spells, but he can stil dispel and so therefore i still benefit from my +4 to dispel
This one seems fine to me, he's still allowed to dispel after all.

3) any other disciplines such as MR(3), Becalming Cogitation and the regeneration still apply to the model
Same as above, as the disciplines are upgrades, technically I'd expect them to stop working.

4) the model is stil cold blooded and also my general, and as a monster gets a boost to his leadership bubble

Yes, I'd say that you got both of these, as you still get that special rule and also, being a large target get that extended range.

 

[Dave T Hobbit]

There really isnt anything RAW wise to argue against special rules affecting the model....

The spell also says that the profile for the creature is listed in the Bestiary, so you replace your Special Rules with the Special Rules of the creature you have become in the same way that your Toughness is replaced.

...the HE is gone, you are now a greater fire dragon....[/QUOTE]

Whatever is technically correct, for me that is the best argument for not doing it.

 

[Arli]

I agree with Alex on this. I play Lizardmen. It would be nice to keep those abilities, but really, how much fun will you (and other players) have running a Ethereal dragon across the field (except that first time:grin. It would be WAY over powered too.

 

[Sethis]

Let them keep all of their silly abilities. Laugh hysterically as you hit it with a Purple Sun of Xereus and it dies on a 2+ with no saves of any kind. :grin:

 

[AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH]

The spell also says that the profile for the creature is listed in the Bestiary, so you replace your Special Rules with the Special Rules of the creature you have become in the same way that your Toughness is replaced.

...the HE is gone, you are now a greater fire dragon....

Whatever is technically correct, for me that is the best argument for not doing it.

RAW this seems to be most correct (and RAI) as the spell says that you turn into this beast and uses it's statline. Aka you replace your own statline and rules for those listed in the bestiary. Arguments for the opposite are not unreasonable but IMO bullshit one to pull.
Remember that it does nowhere state that you retain anything so there's not really anything to suggest you would.

 

[sir_m1ke]

Hell i agree that its a bullshit one to pull (and will avoid doing it myself- although that is mainly because i dnt think Beasts is the best lore for lizzies) but i wanted to get other opinions on my suspicions. as i said, its mainly in response to the warseer threads where "those who dwell above in darkness" (anyone gets the reference gets rep ) claim that you automatically lose all special rules when, using RaW, no such thing occurs

although in response to Alex, the disciplines SHOULD be kept as although they are "upgrades" they are not magical items or mundane equipment, which is the two items specifically mentioned to be lost when the "transmogrification" (yes, that is the word used in the BRB- fantastic!!) so disciplines are kept

TBH the slann is the only wizard i would bother attempting this wif, do it wif anything else and when it is dispelled (and its not TOO difficult to get rid of) then your poor lil wizard is standing in front o ur entire army

just as a side note i was wanting to start a thread about some o my thoughts on Lizzies in 8th since iv played a few games now, any1 b interested in that? i would like some discussion on it rather than me posting a huge big thread and no1 actually caring lol

 

[Dave T Hobbit]

...the disciplines SHOULD be kept as although they are "upgrades" they are not magical items or mundane equipment, which is the two items specifically mentioned to be lost when the "transmogrification" (yes, that is the word used in the BRB- fantastic!!) so disciplines are kept.

In the general, an upgrade for a unit is both a rule (e.g. giving them a new/replacement piece of equipment or giving them a special rule) and a fluff description of why they have it (e.g. buying Mark of Khorne gives the unit Frenzy by making them a worshipper of Khorne) However none of the rules are affected by the reason (the effect of Khornate Frenzy is the same as Corsair Sea Serpent Frenzy despite on being imposed by a god and the other by a Banner).

I have not read the Army Book in depth so I might be incorrect, however the Slann Disciplines provide Special Rules and a fluff explanation, i.e. as the Discipline is part of the profile it is replaced.

The reference to items not carrying over is, as I see it, to confirm you cannot have a Fire Dragon with +2 Sword of Munch, not to allow anything that is not an item to carry over.

 

[Tim/Steve]

Yeah, the items not carrying ove is vital... otherwise I could end up with a greater dragon with a 2+/5++ .. which I think would be a little unfair
Not too sure DE can take beasts.. but if they can could you imagine kadon+pendent of kaleth?

I've used kadon on my spellweaver before- I just cast the lesser level and turned into a horned dragon. I wasnt really trying to become a dragon as such- just wanted to draw out power dice as dispel... but since the opponent kept not dispelling it I initially flew over and flamed him, then charged (though if I had rolled decently for my magic I would have dispelled it so I could cast spells... and then later on I had taken too many wounds to becoem a wizard again).

 

[Durzod]

I'll have to side with the lose it all crowd.. You transform into a dragon or whatever due to casting a spell. The spell is the same for anyone who casts it, therefore the effects should be the same for anyone who casts it.
Just to add a little more fuel to the fire, I have a question about the Transformation. Say I transform into a Horned Dragon, fly over and flame a unit. The spell is then dispelled. I cast it again and become a Horned Dragon. Do I have a breath weapon, or am I the same dragon? What if I boost the spell and become the Fire Dragon?
I'm not sure about this one. On the one hand, a model with a breath weapon only gets to use it once (which would seem to lead me to believe it's once per wizard), but there are arguments for the other interpretation. I know it's not likely to happen, but then what are the chances of a 4th ed 1st Lvl Wood Elf Mage fighting off a 4th Lvl Slaan through three TURNS of HtH (yes, it did happen to my frog)?

 

[sir_m1ke]

I have not read the Army Book in depth so I might be incorrect, however the Slann Disciplines provide Special Rules and a fluff explanation, i.e. as the Discipline is part of the profile it is replaced.

The reference to items not carrying over is, as I see it, to confirm you cannot have a Fire Dragon with +2 Sword of Munch, not to allow anything that is not an item to carry over.

I understand this in respect of disciplines like 5+ Regen and MR(3) as those are special rules, which could be argued are replaced by the special rules of the transformation beast

but HSoC doesnt give you a special rule, it isnt the etheral rule. it simply states that the model can only be affected by magical attacks. from my reading of it, i see no reason why this shouldnt carry over

@Durzod: If the wizard casts it again he becomes a new beast, with the full compliment of wounds etc. and so i would say gets a breath attack again

 

[Tim/Steve]

Yeah, I would say that each time you cats the spell you are a new monster and so can use your breath once more... but if all you want to do is to cast a 16/25+ spell (if thats right) to get a single S2-5 breath weapon hit on me... and taking out one of your casters from the game ( certainly for 25+ I would assume a high level, expensive, caster).

 

[Dave T Hobbit]

I understand this in respect of disciplines like 5+ Regen and MR(3) as those are special rules....

HSoC doesnt give you a special rule....

That does make it less clear what would happen. I can see several possible interpretations:
(i) immunity to normal weapons is a special rule; after all not everyone has it;
(ii) the rules should be consistent where possible so if some disciplines are lost they all are;
(iii) anything that is not part of the stat-line, a special rule, or equipment is retained.

I am divided between (i) and (ii) being a better assumption.

The question also arises about other things that are not defined as equipment. For instance: If the Wizard was your general is he still your general for all purposes?

 

[Aramoro]

I would say it seems reasonable to lose all the abilities of the Caster. You stop being a Slann and Start bring a dragon and you use the Dragon profile, not just statline, you can Fly you have a Breath Attack etc. If you're gaining all these abilities from the replaced profile then these have replaced the abilities from your own profile.

Aramoro

 

[boreas]

Well, Lizardmen FAQ has been updated, no Transformation for the Slaan... Lazy GW!!! They could have clarified how to use it (no special rules, must leave unit, etc)... but, no, let's just cut it out. I'm so happy they are not surgeons. They should have amended Chakax so he can be usefull once again...

Phil

 

[LukeValantine]

Do you really need ethereal? I mean for Christ sakes if your in CC you will strip about 8-10 models from the enemy unit before they can strike, taking into account your thunder stomp attack. Also do to miscast tables/ect why are half the ppl out their recommending this for lizard men in the first place? Hell the only army that should really be regularly trying this dangerous yet hilarious spell is VC, and that's because they can try it on a 135 pt model. Hence making it a wonderful, and relatively cheap way to draw of enemy dispel scrolls/dispel dice/energy dice, while leaving the cheap bugger to fly off and potential instant die when its dispelled. I mean come on has anyone looked at the chances of keeping this spell going? On average this spell will only be allowed to stay in play 1-2 turns max, and deep in the enemy lines is hardly the place you want your 300+pt general when he reverts back to normal.

 

[boreas]

Yes... but it's FFFUUUNNN!!! Haha... I'll still try it with Tehenhauin! 6 dice+2 should be enough to turn that tinee-weeny skink into a mighty beast!

Phil

 

[Tim/Steve]

Any army that takes 2 mages or more, with a cheap one with a 'pick spells' item is going to have fun with this spell... I just wish I could have both the seerstaff of saphery and a power stone on my HE mage, but since they are both arcane I cant :cray: othewise 1st turn I would be throwing 8 dice at transformation higher level

 

[sir_m1ke]

Do you really need ethereal? I mean for Christ sakes if your in CC you will strip about 8-10 models from the enemy unit before they can strike, taking into account your thunder stomp attack. Also do to miscast tables/ect why are half the ppl out their recommending this for lizard men in the first place? Hell the only army that should really be regularly trying this dangerous yet hilarious spell is VC, and that's because they can try it on a 135 pt model. Hence making it a wonderful, and relatively cheap way to draw of enemy dispel scrolls/dispel dice/energy dice, while leaving the cheap bugger to fly off and potential instant die when its dispelled. I mean come on has anyone looked at the chances of keeping this spell going? On average this spell will only be allowed to stay in play 1-2 turns max, and deep in the enemy lines is hardly the place you want your 300+pt general when he reverts back to normal.

I dont think anyone would have seriously considered this with the SLann before the FAQ, but it was simply something i was wondering about. The rules didnt seem to give a clear answer

but the FAQ has sorted it out lol