[stompzilla]

If i was to design a tourney Eldar list to do well with, i reckon this is what it'd be:

HQ

Farseer - Jetbike, spear, runes of warding, mind war - 123
Farseer - Fortune - 85

Elites

8 x Harlequins inc 6 x Kisses, shadowseer, death jester - 208

Troops

10 x Dire avengers inc exarch - twin cats, bladestorm + defend - 167
Wave serpent, vectored engines, EML, spirit stones - 150

6 x Pathfinders - 144

Fast Attack

Twin shuricannon Vyper - 60

Twin shuricannon Vyper - 60

Twin shuricannon Vyper - 60

Heavy Support

Fire prism - Shuricannon, holofields, spirit stone - 170

Fire prism - Shuricannon, holofields, spirit stone - 170

2 x Vibrocannons - 100

Opinions? Or any other ideas for a bad ass tournament list (That isn't Dave's because that is a bad ass list)?

 

[Tithanlir]

Not bad...the only thing that worries me are the footslogging Harlequins because fortune will not save your day with 5+ re rolls, especially is it's escalation !

 

[Jezlad]

I had an introduction to VibroCannons this week. They're a seriosuly nasty piece of kit, I lost a Baal pred, a pred anihilators turret and 2 landspeeders to 3 of them in 2 turns.

Cheeky!

 

[anathema]

Vibros are indeed cheeky. I'm toying with the idea of making a ground pounder Eldar list for the heats this year, just to prove to myself that I can play something other than mech. Vibros will definitely be in there.

 

[stompzilla]

A re-rollable 5+ save is better than a 4+ inv.

With harlies on foot, you need to be patient and wait for an opportunity.

 

[Deadshane]

I'll put in my 2cents trying to keep my U.S. tournement opinions with 2000-1850 battles under control. 8)

Harlies are a fabulous counterattack unit, and will be great in my own 2000 pt footslogger list. However, what are they trying to protect in your skimmer-heavy list? 6 pathfinders and a vibro-team? I think those pts might be better spent elsewhere on more firepower.

Also, your dire avenger unit will never get its pts back. Its great jumpin out and unloading 30+ shots into a unit, but for 300+ pts they are just too expensive. When someone gets lucky and downs your WS on the first turn in the deployment zone, they just whacked 300 pts of your 1500 pt list and you will be playing catchup for the rest of the game, they'll have you by the balls.

It might be better for you to scrap the harlies and the avengers, and bring another pathfinder squad. Putting those remaining pts into something really useful and cheaper. Maybe 5 mounted firedragons. Maybe lots more vypers. Those sort of vypers you're using can be almost as cheap as shuricannon WW's in groups of 3. Not sure about that many vypers though, however, I've heard of people using the shuricannons en masse on vypers, maybe theres something to that.

 

[stompzilla]

Harlies are an offensive unit.

 

[Deadshane]

In a falcon w/o a shadowseer, yea.

w/o a falcon with a shadowseer, umm, no they arent.

 

[anathema]

When someone gets lucky and downs your WS on the first turn in the deployment zone, they just whacked 300 pts of your 1500 pt list and you will be playing catchup for the rest of the game, they'll have you by the balls.

That's why you don't deploy them in the Serpent in turn 1 of a gamma game. 3rd ed, they'd be useless. With their new and improved range they'll be able to get back into the game in the later stages.
I'm personally not a fan of Avengers, but I think its all about where you drop them. Stick the in front of a gunline and you've wasted them. snipe an exposed lascannon flank unit from behind a flank-placed size 3 hill and you've opened up a new avenue of attack and are safe from reprisals.

On the Harlies, they don't have to be a counter-attack squad. At the GT I found that there were a couple of games where they never got in their Falcon because opportunities presented themselves to go after squads during the deployment phase.
In one game, my Falcon was back in my corner and the Harlies front and centre. By turn 2 they were ripping apart an AT castle allowing my tanks to leave cover. In another they counter-charged 2 daemonic characters turn 2 and were in his Firebase by my turn 3.

Granted its more difficult without the transport, but its still an option. Stomp's experienced enough not to throw them out when there are obviously 3 tornadoes waiting to pounce, but the sheer threat of them cannot be ignored. They can be used as bait for a desperate gamble by your opponent in this way.

 

[Deadshane]

When someone gets lucky and downs your WS on the first turn in the deployment zone, they just whacked 300 pts of your 1500 pt list and you will be playing catchup for the rest of the game, they'll have you by the balls.

That's why you don't deploy them in the Serpent in turn 1 of a gamma game. 3rd ed, they'd be useless. With their new and improved range they'll be able to get back into the game in the later stages.
I'm personally not a fan of Avengers, but I think its all about where you drop them. Stick the in front of a gunline and you've wasted them. snipe an exposed lascannon flank unit from behind a flank-placed size 3 hill and you've opened up a new avenue of attack and are safe from reprisals.

All I'm saying is that with the price of the WS factored in, this unit cant get its points back. There might be a smarter purchase, like I said, maybe more of the scouts you guys mentioned.

On the Harlies, they don't have to be a counter-attack squad. At the GT I found that there were a couple of games where they never got in their Falcon because opportunities presented themselves to go after squads during the deployment phase.

maybe they dont HAVE to be, but they're better in that role than an offensive one. Pretty much makes them a defensive unit in my book.

Granted its more difficult without the transport, but its still an option. Stomp's experienced enough not to throw them out when there are obviously 3 tornadoes waiting to pounce, but the sheer threat of them cannot be ignored. They can be used as bait for a desperate gamble by your opponent in this way.

If you're using Harlequins in an offensive role, and your opponent sees it, if he has any mobile firepower at all, they're dead. A simple marine squad in a rhino jumping out and firing bolters does horrendous things to harlies, and their zone of influence (12" rhino move, 2" deployment, 12" rapid fire) is MUCH greater than the harlequins'. The sheer threat of THAT is something the harlies cant ignore, or really avoid unless they stay corralled back in the deployment zone, or are in a falcon. Harlequins arent threatening unless they are close.

If he's experienced with them, and his 'experienced' opponent knows what they can do and reacts to them, they'll be a non-factor in the game. They arent offensive in the context covered here, they are a counter-attack unit. Harlequins moving across the board on foot are asking to get shot up.

...and if you're betting on the veil to save you within 12" after someone moves to within that range to shoot, its a pretty big gamble to make with a lightly armoured 200+ pt hth unit.

 

[anathema]

While I don't think its the most powerful set-up for them in terms of being purely aggressive, I think that it has merit. The Harlies don't actually have to do anything before turn 4, the sheer threat of them will affect deployment and give the other units more breathing space. Rhinos won't last 2 seconds vs. the amount of S6 in this army and if they're hiding then they can be reached. The marine player cannot reach hidden Harlies without unaccetable risk, but Eldar can reach their counterattack units using extreme mobility, then allow the Harlies to do their thing in the end game, where their power is even more pronounced.
Last weekend I used my Falcon mounted squad in a variety of ways, but the times when they started on foot and never saw the Falcon were actually extremely useful. Granted those games were vs. IW who don't have vast amounts of mobile firepower, but it worked well.
I think playtesting will be the main arena to prove either way right or wrong though, so I'll disagree on the extent that you think they aren't useful in principle, but you may be proved right in fact. We shall see.

 

[stompzilla]

All I'm saying is that with the price of the WS factored in, this unit cant get its points back. There might be a smarter purchase, like I said, maybe more of the scouts you guys mentioned.

Lol. If used correctly, these guys earn their points back easily. You do have to be careful with them but that's what i like. That's the challenge. I rarely fail to get the dire avengers to work.

maybe they dont HAVE to be, but they're better in that role than an offensive one. Pretty much makes them a defensive unit in my book.

If you're using Harlequins in an offensive role, and your opponent sees it, if he has any mobile firepower at all, they're dead. A simple marine squad in a rhino jumping out and firing bolters does horrendous things to harlies, and their zone of influence (12" rhino move, 2" deployment, 12" rapid fire) is MUCH greater than the harlequins'. The sheer threat of THAT is something the harlies cant ignore, or really avoid unless they stay corralled back in the deployment zone, or are in a falcon. Harlequins arent threatening unless they are close.

With a death Jester they are. Also i'll happily trade a rhino squad for 2 -3 Harlies. 10 marines = 19 shots, = 2-3 dead harlies with what amounts to a 3+ inv save. Marines then die. Also, how many Rhinos have you seen recently at GTs? I didn't see a single 1 this weekend. Harlies would go through las plas marines like a hot knife through butter. Like Dave says too, how many rhinos is your average 1500pts list going to have? 2 at most if they want any good stuff in there too. I'm quite confident i can kill 2 rhinos with this much S6. If they do hide in the hopes of catching the harlies then it puts a substantial portion of their army out of the game whilst the harlies can still contribute with their shuriken cannon. I can also happily sit on an objective pinging shots off with said marines not being able to retaliate and being too scared to come close.

If he's experienced with them, and his 'experienced' opponent knows what they can do and reacts to them, they'll be a non-factor in the game. They arent offensive in the context covered here, they are a counter-attack unit. Harlequins moving across the board on foot are asking to get shot up.

Show some imagination fella.

...and if you're betting on the veil to save you within 12" after someone moves to within that range to shoot, its a pretty big gamble to make with a lightly armoured 200+ pt hth unit.

Believe it or not, i do actually know how to play this game.

 

[Deadshane]

Against MEQ, the avengers WONT get their points back, if the marine is worth a damn. If you think they will, marine players over there must be stupid.

I see plenty of rhino's and rhino equivalents at tournements, they are still good regardless of what the majority say. Take a look at My standing at adepticon with mech sisters last year. (which would toast harliquins 7 days a week and twice on sundays the way you plan on using them) 6th out of 136 and 1 point away from BEST GENERAL, with unpainted mech sisters at an RTT where painting is scored. HMMM maybe I ALSO know something about this game, despite you guys dismissing my opinions as stupidity and unimaginative.

If you ask me, the way you're planning on running harliquins running across the board is stupid, especially counting on a linked 5+ invulnerable. By the way your linked inv save is only marginally better than a 4+ inv, not a 3+, and nevermind that half the time (against marine players) it wont work anyway thanx to a hood. Count on that if he's planning on rapid firing. You're also counting on baiting your opponent, which is a poor tactic. Count on your opponent making mistakes during an important game as part of your tactics and you're one step closer to losing. I dont make mistakes with lists that I play very often.

Sorry if this seems rude, but you asked for opinions, and I politly gave them....I get responded to with suggestions to work on my imagination, and condecending comments about how you know how to play the game.

...after your "tactica: Harlequins", maybe you know how to play the game, but you sure have a lot to learn.

Maybe you might take suggestions objectively in the future instead of considering them a flat out attack against your tactics/list. I sure didnt get snobby with YOU here, until now. Play your harlequins your way though, it'll be that much easier for people like me to beat the pants off of you.

 

[stompzilla]

:lol:

"Listen to my opinion and don't dare disagree no matter how condescending i get or i'll get really nasty (RE: Even more pompous and condescending)."

"Oh by the way i'm the best and know more than you. Do what i say."

What part of the world did you say you were from again?

:lol:

 

[Deadshane]

:lol:

"Listen to my opinion and don't dare disagree no matter how condescending i get or i'll get really nasty (RE: Even more pompous and condescending)."

"Oh by the way i'm the best and know more than you. Do what i say."

What part of the world did you say you were from again?

:lol:

Stomp, you just quoted me twice, WRONGLY, that isnt what I said at all.

Not only did you disagree with my opionions, (which is fine, and what forums are for) but you (and anathema to a lesser extent) seem to chide me repeatedly in different threads as someone who knows nothing about this game. You disagreed first, after asking for opinions on your list, and in such a manner that was rather insulting. If you dont want opinions, DONT ASK FOR THEM.

I never said I was the best, only that I know this game pretty darn well....and after you did, in a condecsending manner.

...and you were the FIRST one to get condecending.

I'm from the U.S., and you seem to be, at this point quite simply, A MORON, thus...probably not a threat at all in a tourney. Basically, you're an idiot that cant debate....at least that's what you've shown with that last post of yours.

Keep talking....its cute when people get pissed at logic and blow up making themselves look silly.

 

[stompzilla]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :roll:

 

[anathema]

(and anathema to a lesser extent) seem to chide me repeatedly in different threads as someone who knows nothing about this game.

Er, I just happen to respond mostly to Eldar tactic threads being a long time Eldar player. We seem to have differing opinions on Eldar, but as someone who bust into the initial Eldar thread telling us that we need more experience playing good players and that:

Well, I dunno what to tell you guys, I guess I could teach a class on here about how to play 40k or something, but it isnt worth my time.

you've not really given a good impression of yourself to me so I don't tend to cut you much slack. Posts like that just look condescending. Sure you have some interesting ideas, but you're not the only experienced Eldar player in the world and as such your opinions aren't more right than everyone else's as it appears you seem to think sometimes.

I respond to your posts with arguments based on my own extensive experience using Eldar when you post ideas I disagree with. Nothing more, nothing less. If you don't like reasoned disagreement, there's nothing I can do about that. If you post in marine or Ork tactica threads, you'll find I don't respond very much.

 

[Iron_mantis]

ahahahahahahahahahahah.....6th out of 136th saying hes ace clap clap clap try 6th out of about 450 IIRC. ahahahahahaha harlequins on foot aren't offencive. :lol: :lol: :lol: i needed something to make me laugh today.
I love america

 

[Jezlad]

ahahahahahahahahahahah.....6th out of 136th saying hes ace clap clap clap try 6th out of about 450 IIRC. ahahahahahaha harlequins on foot aren't offencive. :lol: :lol: :lol: i needed something to make me laugh today.
I love america

Welcome to the Forums ahahahahahahahahahahahahaha clap clap

 

[Elric of Melnibone]

I had an introduction to VibroCannons this week. They're a seriosuly nasty piece of kit, I lost a Baal pred, a pred anihilators turret and 2 landspeeders to 3 of them in 2 turns.

Cheeky!

They can be nasty but suffer badly with esgalation, but are cheap