[The Wraithlord]

You know the drill

Hey guys, yet more CSM goodness here. I'll do it god by god.

Khorne:
Bezerkers now WS5 and have furious charge, Chainaxes and blood frenzy gone.

Tzeentch:
TS Bolters now AP3, Sorcerers are key to the squads though as without them they roll their SAP on 1D6.
Sorcerers come with Force Weapons

Nurgle:
PMs with FNP (but we knew that already)
All have Blight grenades, work like Tau Photon Grenades

Slaanesh:
Mark gives +1I
Blastmaster on full mode now a blast Krak Missile
Doom Siren now AP3

Now for some Special Character bits.

Abaddon: Talon/Drachn'yen now one weapon. Counts as a Daemon weapon (DW's are a generic weapon now, all grant +D6 attacks and +1S, but if a 1 is rolled you cannot attack) but it doubles his Strength and you can re-roll failed hits and wounds.

Typhus: Daemon Weapon too, but is also a Force Weapon

Ahriman: Can use 3 psychic powers a turn, including his force weapon

Huron Blackheart: (yes he is in there, i've seen the fig) Tyrant's claw is a powerfist with built in heavy flamer. Hamadyra grants him the "Warp Time" psychic power (WT allows you to re-roll all failed hits and wounds in HTH)

As for the fig, he looks a little like the Games Day SM from 2 years ago, though he has a large power axe and a halo not unlike St Celestine's on his backpack, the Tyrant's Claw looks a little like Nazdreg's old PF though the Flamer is mounted in the palm of the hand.

More to come.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apoth
Are thousand sons going to be 50 points a piece or what??

No, half that (apparently)

They also come with a 4+ invulnerable

Are the rules for Lucius the Eternal and Kharn going to be in the new 'dex then? or would that be overdoing the special characters?

@Torgaddon, from what i've been told, they're both in there. As is ol' Fabulous Bill

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Wayne II
One question: What are Demons like now? Do they just have a generic statline, or do they have customisation options as well?

Daemons are now generic, though this is because they are really a "get you by" statline until Codex: Daemons (hopefully a working title) is released in April next year.

From what I gather, it will be all of the LATD bits and bobs, as the dex focuses purely on CSM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apoth
Only 25 points? I'm a bit surprised given the AP3 bolter fire, 4+ invuln, and force weapon. Is that AP3 bolter standard on all or just an upgrade for some?

It's as standard, they all come with Inferno Bolts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apoth
I can't imagine that the TS wouldn't have some major disadvantage at that point cost...such as not being able to charge at all.

Yeah, you're looking at 300+ pts for a squad (keep in mind they only have 1 wound now too) as the Sorcerer is a very expensive upgrade, even before you add psychic powers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torgaddon
Dude, I don't quite understand.
Do you mean that the daemon slot could be represented by any bits and bobs from LATD???

Sorry if I'm being thick- first day back at work after new baby and very tired.

T

No, no no. the Daemon entries are just "summoned Greater Daemon" and "summoned lesser daemons" Apparently the distinct daemon types (and a new LATD list) will be in codex:daemons out in april 2008

On a side note, any word on what the codex requirement will be for squad sizes? I'm curious what they do with Chaos to limit min-maxing

Apoth, i've been reassured the squad sizes are varible, though the way you can purchase weapons is a little like the Combat Squads, i.e. you can only have a heavy weapon if you have 10 guys

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolter Bait
I'm betting that Blastmasters won't be vehicle upgrades anymore, as why on earth would GW get rid of the option to for EC players to make their vehicle guns inferior for free?

You would be correct

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolter Bait
Oh goodness; if the Warp Time psychic power that Hamadrya grants Blackheart is one of the generic Chaos psychic powers (don't SM Librarians have that to choose from?) available to Ahriman, that means a rerollable to wound Force Weapon...

Ahriman has all of the psychic powers availble to CSM, barring the 2 god-specific ones. Lash of Submission and Nurgle's Rot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by t-tauri
If anything Grey Knights are over priced. Pure Grey Knights are hard to win with. I hope Thousand Sons are a little more carefully costed.

Well, another balancing factor, plus something is rather noteworthy. Models with a Mark of Tzeentch no longer auto pass psychic tests, though they can use 2 a turn apparently

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodknight
Nurgle´s rot is now a psychic power? Cool. What does it do?

It's a little like the Pandemic Staff from the current dex.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaimarion
nooooooooooooo, they cant take blood frenzy and chain axes away from them it just isnt fair.......damn
Besides that its looking good.

So hitting and wounding most things on a 3+ in HTH is not a good tradeoff? I think it is

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shebnar
Hello Grimtuff and thank you!

Just some info from a Nurglesque point of view...

1) Does exist any Plague Weapon of any type in the new Codex? (Plague Knives, Plague Sword...)

2) What does the Nurgle's Rot do in the new Codex?

3) Does the Mark of Nurgle add +1 Toughness even against Instant Death?

4) Is there any dedicate Daemon Weapon? I mean, we had rumours that the Khornate Daemon Weapons would have added +2D6 Attacks (paying the due cost in points, of course)

5) Which weapons can Obliterators morph?

Thanks again!

1)nope
2) it's a psychic power, not unlike the Pandemic Staff in the current dex.
3)nope, it grants FNP as well though. PM's will be a bugger to shift.
4)nope, just one weapon option called "Daemon weapon"
5)A lot more energy based weapons, including Plasma Cannons and Multimeltas, they've lost the ability to morph stuff like Autocannons and Heavy Bolters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolter Bait
Ooh, and one more thing. How are the bonus granted by Marks applied? Is it just a straight bonus (i.e. MoS marine is I4(5) and a MoN marine is T4(5)) or do they work like Tyranid biomorphs where they actually change the stats of the model in question?

Slaanesh, Khorne and Tzeentch yes, Nurgle no.

*Tzeentch as it gives you a 5+ invulnerable save, or +1 to it if you have one already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apoth
Do we have any vague idea how much the marks are going to cost?

Not sure, naturally Tzeentch will be the most expensive, but the others will probably be the same cost as they are now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apoth
Any further rumors on what may be in the Fast Attack slot BESIDES just raptors and bikes?

Yup, Chaos Spawn units apparently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apoth
Interesting...why fast attack, though? They move as beasts or something?

No other place for them?

On a related note, as it was mentioned in the other thread, just to confirm the changes to Defilers, they have lost indirect fire, but have gained Fleet (!) and the ability to change their two body mounted weapons to additional CCW

Quote:
Originally Posted by RTB01
are sonic weapons going to get a boost/ reduction in points cost to make them more viable?

See the first post, Blast Krak missiles (effectively) yes please!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apoth
So a defiler that fleets, has a battlecannon, and two additional ccws? Nice.

6 Attacks on the charge IIRC, my WE are definitely getting one!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mightymouse
Thanks for the info Grimtuff.

Quick question will the TS sorcerors have access to "the key" psychic power as in the trial rules from eye of terror?

No Tzeentch specific powers AFAIK (apart from Bolt of Change)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RTB01
are sonic blasters going to improve as well as Blastmasters? - sorry for the repeated questions

SB are exactly the same, only BMs and DSs have changed

Quote:
Originally Posted by wasted
What about Raptors? Any price decrease? Remastered abilities?

They're effectively CSM assault marines, no HAR etc. apparently. Though all units can take icons that give them that chaos mark, for example you can give them a khorne icon to give them all +1 attack

Quote:
Originally Posted by mightymouse
thanks for fast reply Grimtuff just time for 1 more quick question from me - Do havocs still exist as an entry? i.e can i still take slaanesh havocs with 4 blastmasters? thanks im off to bed now to dream dreams of chaos!!

Havocs still exist, you can effectively give them the MOS (see my previous post on icons) only the noise marine entry has access to all the sonic goodies AFAIK. we'll have to wait to find out that one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apoth
In a similar vein, are havocs just being turned into chaos devs? Or can they still take 4 plasma, 4 melta, etc.

I should bloody hope the assault weapon options are still there!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apoth
On other topics...so you don't buy marks on individual models, you buy an icon for the squad? Interesting. So rather than paying X points per mark you pay a set point cost per Icon?

Yup. Zerkers, TS etc. are all seperate entries, much like the first codex, and they gain other things over the mark, such as FNP for PM's and Furious Charge for Zerks.

For CSM, Raptors and Havocs you can buy icons which give them, in effect, the mark

@Shebnar: Yes they are, Daemons have only 1 entry now called "summoned lesser daemons". Possessed, interesting, they have gone back to the D6 roll for their abilities.

@Latro_: Zerkers, PM's etc. ARE Troop choices anyway, no sacred number either

Quote:
Originally Posted by wasted
Thanks a lot Grimtuff! Can you say how marks of gods will effect on Deamon Weapon?

We know that mark of Khorne will grant another D6 for attacks...

No it does not, MOK gives +1 attack. Daemon Weapon is just another weapon choice, just as power weapons and power fists are, it grants +1S and +D6 attacks no matter what your mark

Quote:
Originally Posted by boogle
Grimtuff, will there be lim its on what can and can't have certain marks of Chaos (EG no Khornate Havocs, or TS Bikers?)

From what I saw, no. As we had a rather good discussion on what mark to give them (MOK seems good, as all CSM come with BP, CCW, Bolter and F+K grenades as standard) so you've got Havocs with 3 attacks a piece if charged

Quote:
Originally Posted by Latro_
hmmm All getting rather vanilla marines.
dont happen to have landspeeders now do they? lol.

I'll pick at bits i havnt seen you mention,
Possessed? are they now non bum?
Vet skills? thats a biggie, so many lists revolve around skills.
I assume daemonic beasts are scrapped
Is daemonic stature now a type of lord choice? owing to its popularity.

1) Bum? You now have a table that you roll a D6 on to see what abilities the Possessed get.
2) no vet skills available to buy for anyone.
3)yup
4)yup

 

[uberschveinen]

The other stuff seems to be good. It makes a great deal of sense for the Plague Marines to have the old Berzerker ability, and the new Berzerker ability seems just as good. The only flaw seems to be the total genericising of daemon weapons, but hopefully that's an error to be rectified in later releases.

 

[torealis]

this still doesnt help with my fast attack TS army... nevermind...

 

[cccp]

looks interesting. shame that the chainaxes will go though..

thousand sons do seem to be getting a mega boost, and they really do need it!

 

[Jacobite]

Still waiting on news on the Undivided Legions. I'm getting a little worried

 

[Sonofmorris]

ok, big question, though i may have missed it...

wheres fearless???

som

 

[pathwinder14]

What?? No Khorneate chain weapons? Not my chain weapons. Whyyyyyy?????

 

[Anphicar]

Codex: Daemons, ooo cool!

 

[nobrot]

Yay to the blood frenzy i hated that rule

 

[The Wraithlord]

Just 2 clarifying points.

Daemon weapons: Both theories are correct, you gain +D6 attacks, but if a 1 is rolled for those extra attacks you may not attack and you take a wound with no save allowed.

Thousand Sons: In the copy I saw it said flat out they had a 4+ invulnerable save, it said something along the lines of "MOT bonus already included" thus giving them that save, as the MOT grants anyone with an existing invulnerable save +1 to it.

Sweet, there is hope for Daemon Weapons yet. This post was made by Venerable Dred who is also regarded as 'in the know' on Warseer:

Indeed, the base "daemon weapon" is modified depending on which chaos god (if any) it is devoted.

The base daemon weapon is as described.

The Daemon Weapons carried by the special characters are unique items with their own rules, so don't be surprised if they are a little different than the daemon weapons available to list HQs. (i.e., the Man Reaper is still in there, it just happens to be Typhus's personal daemon weapon and is not an option for any other Nurgle follower).

(Grimtuff - if you get another chance, check the Daemon Weapon box-out for more details regarding the god-specific mods to daemon weapons.)


Venerable Dred

 

[The Wraithlord]

The dude that posted all the info in the first post I made had this to say today:

Just another point (maybe to fan some flames as well )

In the copy I saw (a key point) there was no Vindicator entry. At all.

Keep in mind, this may have been an earlier (or indeed later) copy from the one Brimstone has seen/access to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RTB01
so there's no difference between a noise marine with a sonic blaster and a chaos marine, with the MoS and a sonic blaster?

How many times do we have to say this? (I apologise, but it has been said so many times in this thread, it's just not funny)

Only the CULT UNIT (i.e. Noise Marines, Khorne Bezerkers) entries gain access to additional goodies, The marks provided by the Icons only confer +A, +I, +T or a 5+ invulnerable, that's it!

FWIW, Unidivided is still there, called "Icon of Chaos Glory", does exactly the same as it currently does

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimtuff
FWIW, Unidivided is still there, called "Icon of Chaos Glory", does exactly the same as it currently does

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraith
How is this delt with in regards to characters?

Do they have personal icons?

All CSM Characters are Fearless to begin with and yes they have access to Personal Icons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varath- Lord Impaler
I was wondering, you said Chosen Terminators could all be upgraded to Aspiring champions, does this provide any other upgrades beyond+1 attack?

All it provides is +1 attack, so you *could* have Khornate ones with 5 attacks on the charge.

Another thing, as this is bugging me too. There are no upgradable Daemon Weapons based on the Mark you take. I assure you 100% on this. The only box-out in the entire book concerns the different types of Daemonic Steeds*


*Which I forgot to mention. Palanquins are back for Nurgle ) Give them +1A and +1W IIRC

This is an important note here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by lord_blackfang
So there are some Mark-specific wargear options?

Only the Steeds (in the version I saw) Juggernaughts, Discs, Steeds of Slaanesh and Palanquins.

@Boltman. I know for a fact it was a WIP version as soon as I saw it, there's proofreading corrections throughout the whole book, there's a 2 page spread with nothing more than "Abaddon and Horde pic to go here" writting across it. Other bits, such as in Fabius Bile's entry, where it says across his artwork pic "Get full piece viginette" the Armoury artwork is from the DA codex, the list goes on.....

I *know* it's a WIP version, I just don't know *how* WIP, assuming the person who showed it to us had only just got his hands on it, this is the latest WIP version.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varath- Lord Impaler
So Grimtuff, i have an ale of Bugmans finest if you wish to give any information, particularily on the Juggernaught.

Well, i'm teetotal, but go on.....

Jugger give +1S and +1A, but you cannot give him Termi armour, nor can you put him in a Rhino, he counts as 2 models in a Land Raider though.

But still, Daemon Weapon+Jugger..... You're getting anywhere between 8 and 12 attacks at S6 (remember DW's give +1S too) ignoring saves. (3 base, Juggs, MOK, Charging, 2+ from DW)

You just made me go check it.....

More disappointment of the Daemon front, it appears both the LOC's and Thirster's wings are just for show for the time being

Nothing really standout with "wow" in a good way (mainly as I expected the Defiler changes from the previous thread)

Standout with "wow" in a bad way was certainly the Possessed, as GW appear to done a complete rules U turn. As I seem to remember in the designers notes for the current CSM dex about why a random roll needed to be got rid of (mainly WYSIWYG)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jubilex
Thanks for this grimtuff, top man. When you say a jugg is 2 models in a raider, does this mean the transport description has changed? Ie, from either terms or pow armour to a potential mix? Does this have repercussions to champ armour/mixed armour retinues and the like?

Well, i'm not 100% what you're getting at, but it specifically mentions the Jugger and Panaquin (the other 2 being Cavalry and Jump Infantry, so cannot enter a transport anyway)

It says in the LR entry.

"Transport capacity: 10 models" then it has 2 other bullet points saying "Terminators count as 2 models" and "Obliterators and summoned daemons cannot be transported"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flatline
Oh and I also think the random possessed power is a step backward. Hopefully the table won't have the '1 - no useful abilities' entry.

Then you'll be very disappointed......

This one is from Venerable Dred (again, one of those known to be 'in the know')

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimtuff
...Another thing, as this is bugging me too. There are no upgradable Daemon Weapons based on the Mark you take. I assure you 100% on this. The only box-out in the entire book concerns the different types of Daemonic Steeds ...

Then I guess we has seen different versions of the codex.

As for Vindicators, they were also shown in the color photo section (I believe in Iron Warrior colors).


Venerable Dred

 

[Alexander_67]

Codex demons? Really? Does that suggest demon only armies to anyone else other than me? Give something for the Grey Knights to slice up real nice. I mean why separate demons out into a separate codex if you cant make them their own army? Are demons just a sidenote now or what? (Wow there a lot of question in there)

 

[Hespithe]

I'm not that concerned about Daemons. My guess is that while they share the same basic stat line, their god granted abilities will make each more than suited for their differing roles within the list. And, this comes from a guy who runs his Daemons as his troop choices.

As for the rest, I'm still waiting impatiently for some clearer information. Wraithlord, I appreciate your consolidation of these rumors here. Thanks.

 

[kelvingreen]

Codex demons? Really? Does that suggest demon only armies to anyone else other than me?

Unless they're doing three Chaos Codices, I'd imagine that anything non-Marine will go in Codex: Daemons. So we'll get the traitors, cults and so on in addition to Daemons. My guess anyway.

 

[The Wraithlord]

From Inquisitor Proiteus at Librarium Online (admittedly dubious)

"Heres my own info, its offical stuff from a GW manager who has a mock up of the new codex

1. Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Alpha Legion and Word Bearers no longer have their own set of rules and must be created using the standard army list in the codex.

2. Deamonic Gifts have been dropped instead there is a fixed deamon prince HQ that can only be upgraded with marks, wings, psychic powers and deamon weapons, but with such hard stats he a cheep guy for standard 110pts.

3. All Chaos Marines can switch between their Boltgun & Bolt Pistol and Close Combat Weapon any time during the game.

4. Dreadnoughts are now Elites and Oblivators have been moved to Heavy Support and now have toughness 4 and only 3 weapons: the Heavy Bolter, Auto Cannon and Plasma Cannon.
5. Mark Of Nurgle gives it users Toughness 5 (But this time can't be killed by sgt 8 weapons outright) Plus feel no pain and fearless.

6. Nurgles Rot now gives any enemy model within 12 a sgt 3 hit every turn. But requires a psychic test.

7. Mark Of Khrone gives it user furious charge and extra attack, blood rage.

8. Sorcerers have force weapons

9. Defilers can exchange the minor weapons (Flamer & Auto Cannon) for extra attacks, the defiler itself is now got an extra standard attack and better weapon skill as well as fleet of claw (or whatever)

10. Veteran Skills are no longer available to every chaos marine and are only accessable to choosen squads.

11. Not surprising Thousands Sons have received an upgrade which gives it bearer Slow and Purposeful, No extra attack when charging and fearless but this time instead of 1 extra wound they have a 4+ invulnerable save and a bolter with AP3 Bullets nasty!!!

All of this is 100% Official!"

Link at: http://www.librarium-online.com/foru...thread-40.html

Firstly if true the Daemon Prince sounds good, but as allways with "Heres my own info, its offical stuff from a GW manager " a pinch (or barrel) of salt is clearly required. On Obliterator Weapons whilst rumours lead towards restriction, they lead to energy weapons only, hopefully this is just general pre codex tripe. On Nurgle Toughness 5 vs. T 5(4) does seem excessive especially if this also pertains to cult troops ( T5(4), FNP, and Blight Grenades seems to be enough defense). On Thousand Sons (Cult Troops) the supposed no extra attack when charging could balance the AP3 Bolts. Plus I thought Blood Rage was dead, hopefully it is or khorne marked havocs, etc... seem pretty useless (unless the rule is vastly changed, could relate to berzerkers increased weapon skill?). Please don't take this as 100% official, Grim and Brim almost certainly have a better idea than me (and especially Proiteus!).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dooks Dizzo
Chaos Terminators, is there more you can tell us?

1. Do combi bolters do the same thing?
2. Can we take single Lightening Claws?
3. Can we take combi melta's/flamers?
4. Can we teleport whether the mission allows or not?
5. Can an entire unit be upgrades to veteran or chosen status and if so, can they take vet skills?

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. Yes (though this may be a cut-and-paste error*, wait till the full codex comes out)
5. Nope. All can be made into Aspiring Champions though.

*The wargear section in my copy is more or less a copy of what is in the DA codex, including Artwork.

Blackie: after looking through it again, I need to correct myself. MOT allows you to take 2 powers, not use 2 powers. So a Tzeentch DP can have the same amount of powers as a Aspiring Sorcerer.

As for Daemon Princes, I wouldn't fret about their lack of options, a base one costs the same as 8 tactical marines minus 10 not a lot of points really when you see it comes effectively with Daemonic Strength, Essence, Mutation, Aura, Stature (obviously) and a Rune included in its cost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lord_blackfang
Wow, looks like they'll give Hive Tyrants a run for their money in the "most points-efficient MC" category. Can they take a daemon weapon? Speaking of which, are daemon weapons 0-1 ? I'm assuming not, but probably only available to ICs?

They can't be given Daemon Weapons sadly, in fact, they've no weapon options. Give him Wings and one of the Marks and away he goes! (he'll be about the cost of a full Tactical squad with no upgrades then) He'll still give most things a pasting though, as he's base WS7 too.

DW are not 0-1 either, mainly because Chaos Lords are not

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shebnar
Is there a Chaos Familiar which grants you +1 Initiative?

Nope, the Familiar does exactly what it currently does. If you want +1I take the MOSlaanesh

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dude
Edit: Ddraiglais, Grimtuff said they don't have the option for one at all. Although I'm choosing to take that to mean they come armed with one as standard

Sadly it saws they count as being armed with a single CCW and that's it

Quote:
Originally Posted by static grass
I am with Grimtuff. When he said "SPECIAL RULES DO NOT MAKE THE ARMY".

And that when he said " Want a Dark Apostle? Slap a MOT and DW on him". I think he meant that your Dark Apostle is not defined by what items he has specifically. He is defined by you using your own fluff and imagination. This is how people make "counts as armies" and manage to have a good time.

Kindof, if you wish to emulate the 4+ Invulnerable and Daemon Weapon they currently have, that is the only way, but the MOT will certainly fall under "counts as" in this case

Quote:
Originally Posted by lord_blackfang
It's also still up in the air what a MoN actually does for bikers.

*Checks codex*

The Nurgle icon is the most expensive one, and it still grants them +1T (T6 Bikers wooo!) though, as with the bike bonus, they're still T4 for Instant Death purposes.

N.B. this also means a CSM Lord of Nurgle on Bike is T6

QUOTE]

Quote:
Originally Posted by malisteen
... Have we heard anything more on terminators? Anything positive? ... Better rules for deep striking?

Yes,
yes I have,
and it is tied to Icons.

Until I get better confirmation, 'nuff said.

Venerable Dred[/QUOTE]


This could be cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by malisteen
... 4) Can anything in the codex take teleport homers?

I can answer this one.

There are no Teleport Homers in the CSM codex.

That said, is anything that functions similar to an Imperial Teleport Homer in the CSM codex?

Why yes, yes there is.


Venerable Dred

 

[kelvingreen]

3. All Chaos Marines can switch between their Boltgun & Bolt Pistol and Close Combat Weapon any time during the game.

I assume that means that you can pick either combination for free at the army list stage, and not that you can actually switch in-game. :shock:

 

[cccp]

I assume that means that you can pick either combination for free at the army list stage, and not that you can actually switch in-game.

well i assume it would work in a similar way to the dark angels. They come with the bolter, pistol and ccw, and are able to switch in-game.

 

[Jacobite]

From Inquisitor Proiteus at Librarium Online (admittedly dubious)

"Heres my own info, its offical stuff from a GW manager who has a mock up of the new codex

1. Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Alpha Legion and Word Bearers no longer have their own set of rules and must be created using the standard army list in the codex.

Bye bye Night Lords, been nice knowing you

 

[cccp]

that would be similar to the eldar craftworlds - there is no longer a set list for them, but you can still theme your army around a craftworld if you wish.

All is not lost!

 

[Jacobite]

Yea I know but how many people actually field the set armies.

They are kinda the same as Raven Gaurd, just cause they are able to be used using the traits system doesn't mean that people will play them.