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I Piss in your Cheerios
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Discussion Starter #1
This thread MAY look a bit of a mess. So, sorry. lol

Disclaimer said:
As ever, any similarity to existing units and points costs is coincidental, as mine have been given values based upon my approximation of their value internally to each Codex, rather than their value in relation to present or former GW publications. Where a unit has the same cost it will not be explicit in my work, and so it would be foolish to extrapolate army lists from my Homebrew. Names given are purely for descriptive purposes.
The Rhino, sadly, has been forced into the unpleasant position of needing two seperate entries, one for Renegades and one for Legions - I am NOT giving the Legions Stormbolters, I simply can't do it...and the Renegades can't have Combi-Bolters either. Sorry, WB and AL players, but it's for the Greater Good.

Suggestions of ways to get round this will be generously rewarded with Rep where possible.

Not ever Transport I plan to include is finished - for the time being, assume Chimeras and Drop Pods 'remain' as in their Codex:IG and Codex:SM prints, respectively. Dreadclaws may be assumed to be 50point Drop Pods with the 'Assault Vehicle' special rule.

Predators have also been included in this thread, this may be temporary...but we shall see.

Without further ado...
Renegade Rhino said:
Points - 35. BS4 F11 S11 R10
Vehicle (Tank) Transport Capacity: Ten models Special Rules: Repair.
Wargear: Stormbolter, Searchlight, Smoke Launchers.
Options: Extra [email protected] ; Extra [email protected] ; Dozer [email protected]
Then, Renegade only...
Chaos Razorback said:
Points - 45 BS4 F11 S11 R10
Vehicle (Tank) Transport Capacity: Six models
Wargear: Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter, Searchlight, Smoke Launchers.
Options: Replace TLHB with:
Twin-Linked Heavy [email protected] ; Twin-Linked Assault [email protected] ; Twin-Linked [email protected] ; Lascannon and Twin-Linked [email protected]
Add Extra [email protected] Add Dozer [email protected]
Both forces get:
Chaos Predator said:
Points - 70 BS4 F13 S11 R10
Vehicle (Tank)
Wargear: Autocannon, Smoke launchers, Searchlight, Extra Armour.
Options: Dozer [email protected], Daemonic [email protected], Havoc [email protected], Add sponsons with: Heavy [email protected] ; [email protected]
Replace Autocannon with: Twin-Linked [email protected] ; Plasma [email protected] ; Twin-Linked Reaper [email protected]
Finally, for Legions alone...
Chaos Rhino said:
Points:35 BS4 F11 S11 R10
Vehicle (Tank) Transport Capacity: Ten models Special Rules: Repair.
Wargear: Twin-Linked Bolter, Searchlight, Smoke Launchers.
Options: Havoc [email protected] Either: Additional Twin-Linked [email protected] ; Combi-weapon (Flamer/Melta/Plasma)@10pts.
Extra [email protected], Dozer [email protected] ; Daemonic [email protected]
Chaos Land Raider said:
Points: 200 BS4 F14 S14 R14
Vehicle (Tank) Transport Capacity: Twenty models Special Rules:Assault Vehicle.
Wargear: Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter, Smoke Launchers, Searchlight.
Options: Extra [email protected], Dozer [email protected], Daemonic [email protected], Havoc [email protected], Sponsons with Twin-Linked Lascannons (reduces Transport Capacity to Twelve models)@20pts
Okay guys, baulk at the cost of the LR...NOW. Then remember that it can still be killed fairly easily by a single Melta weapon.

Explanations: I am thinking of the same profile for the Havoc and Reaper as currently exist (ain't broke!) Everything else you should be familiar with.
Daemonic Possession will allow the vehicle to ignore any Damage Results of 'Crew Shaken' or 'Crew Stunned' and change the BS of the vehicle to BS2.

Feedback? Anything at all...even 'ZOMG You is writin stoopud rulz, lolz' is preferable to silence. :)
 

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I like these rules, they do open up some interesting avenues, but IMHO the havoc launcher as-is needs to change. I feel that as Chaos will never get razorbacks, the launcher needs to change to something similar to the CML and stay at 15 or go up to 20 points.
For example, perhaps the following:
Havoc Launcher - 25 Points (bringing rhinos to razorback points levels). Havoc launchers fire clusters of heat-seeking fragmentation warheads. These may be fired as a spread to cover a wide area and decimate infantry, or as focused bursts that work together to pinpoint an enemy vehicle and deliver their combined force to one target area (just some fluff)

May fire as S 5 AP 5 Heavy 4, ignores cover OR as S 8 AP 4 Heavy 2. R36", vehicles may fire this weapon even after moving 12" if they fire no other weapons.

The recent DE change of disintegrators from blast to heavy 3 inspired me, as usually a havoc launcher would only cover 1 or 2 models. Further, the fact that the blast was twin-linked usually didn't come into play and was useless when I tried to put a S5 blast into rear AV10 or on land speeders.

My incarnation above might be undercosted, but given that it doesn't deny armor saves for MEQ's (a balancing issue so that it doesn't overshadow las-plas razorbacks in killiness against higher value targets) it should be reasonable.

It is my opinion that the problem with the current codex (besides the issues of the troops IN the rhinos) are that, with no razorback option, the chaos codex simply cannot get any real benefit of stelek's 1+1 on its FOC. A chaos rhino, even tooled with double combi-weapons and a havoc launcher, doesn't present a threat to anything and just gets blown up.

(Apologize for post length but I am an avid chaos player, and its almost over.)

I don't think the solution for chaos (excepting renegades, of course) is to give them spiky loyalist stuff. As answers to SM razorbacks, land speeders, and drop pods, I would like to see chaos rhinos able to upgrade their firepower by weapons choices. I would also like to see chaos have cheaper reaper cannons on termies, and have them as an option for havocs and many chaos vehicles. These would provide excellent torrent options for chaos, solving the "reach out and touch you" problems of the codex.

Of course specific units still need fixes, but just giving chaos a way to torrent AV11-13 at 36"+ without an undue amount of points would solve many problems, I feel.

Sorry for massive rant.

EDIT: one note I would like to make about your above predator is that the reaper autocannon is ALWAYS twin-linked, and 12" less range than a normal autocannon. A 15point upgrade for that privilege seems somewhat pricy.
 

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I Piss in your Cheerios
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Discussion Starter #3
...I am an idiot for that. lol

I had it cheaper, and then increased it when copying into the post from my notes, no idea why. I will fix. lol

As for what you said about Chaos Rinos just being better (option-wise) - I concur completely, and was attempting that.

I don't think your Havoc Launcher is undercosted at all - maybe slightly over, though that requires testing for refinement. However, rest assured I have ideas for letting CSM stand up to Razorspam etc in that way - and note the increased and increasing cost of the Renegade Razors make RazorSpam much less efficient for Renegades, forcing other avenues.

When I get the Oblits and other Cult Troops posted you may see better what I mean. :)

+Rep for great response, thought process, and stuff.
 

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ZOMG You is writin stoopud rulz, lolz

Maybe do one entry for the Rhino, surely your army is gonna be either Legion or Renegade and not both right?

Rhino 30 points
BS4 FA11 SA11 RA11
Wargear, searchlight, smoke launchers
Options : Rhinos in a Renegade force must take one stormbolter at +5 points and may take an additional stormbolter at +5 points; Extra Armour at +15 points ; Dozer Blade at +5 points
Rhinos in a Legion force must take one combi-bolter at +5 points and may take either an additional combi-bolter at +5 points or a combi-weapon at +10 points; Extra Armour at +15 points ; Dozer Blade at +5 points ; Daemonic Possession at+25 points ; Havoc Launcher at +10 points
 

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Ah, ok that makes sense then. Yeah stick with what you have.
 

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Initial thoughts are that it is good to separate out the renegades and the legions, especially in terms of upgrades and equipment. the only query is whether renegades should have access to daemonic possession on the pred, i would maybe make that a legion-only thing, just a thought

on the daemonic possession, BS2 strikes me as quite low for the cost. Maybe BS4 but ignores crew shaken totally, therefore for 25pts you can ignore that result (which is a 50% chance on a glance), or for 40pts you buy both extra armour and possession and get effective immunity to both crew results without reduction in firepower but at a hefty cost. again, just a thought

dreadclaws are a nasty prospect in a zerker army, but i suppose at the minute they need a chance to do something. do the dreadclaws have stormbolters, combi-bolters or something else? its a stupid point i know but just in case

would love to see a daemonic transport vehicle for the legions, after 10000 years i find it hard to believe they havent come up with something else. but that is a thread in itself i imagine

+rep anyway! look forward to what you do with the Death Guard/PMs
 

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I Piss in your Cheerios
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Discussion Starter #8
Dreadclaws will be armed with TL Bolters, with the options of Combi-Flamer/Combi-Plas...and, at a hefty cost, Reaper Autocannons.
 

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Dreadclaws are a terrible idea really, for a start they're Flyers so you're automatically playing IA rules for them. You're giving them an untouchable better than deep striking assault vehicle. I just don't see the need for it.
 

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I Piss in your Cheerios
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Discussion Starter #10
Nu-uh. I am making them glorified Assault Drop Pods that Mishap sometimes.

Though I should probably read the FW rules for them before I do mine proper...which IA are they in? :)
 

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Ah I see, it's in Imperial Armour Update 2006. Basically it's 65pts, unarmed, Flyer, Drop Pod etc. Interesting in that book it's not an Assault Vehicle, but i'm sure it is somewhere else.
 

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I Piss in your Cheerios
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Discussion Starter #13
Ah I see, it's in Imperial Armour Update 2006. Basically it's 65pts, unarmed, Flyer, Drop Pod etc. Interesting in that book it's not an Assault Vehicle, but i'm sure it is somewhere else.
Thanks! I would +Rep, but it's too soon. lol :wink:

How do you justify making everything virtually the same as the CSM codex yet 5-10 (and sometimes 20) pts cheaper?
This one is an easy question to field, but that's the kind I like. :victory:

Basically, there isn't a lot fundamentally wrong with the CSM book from a playing perspective. Most of the options are priced badly for 5e - but this is an issue more to do with Edition Change and Policy Shift than anything else.

That said, there is more difference than I think I'm getting credit for here. Last count, I was writing 52 units between two books - so, apart from doubling the number of books involved, I'm going to 52 unique units - up from 31 in the present CSM book.

Perhaps you need to see more of my rules to 'get' where most of the changes lie - this is hard for me to judge, as I have access to more of my work than you. :laugh: lol
 

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Haha true that. Its just the prices still work for CSM in the codex (dont get me wrong, i hate it too) but you shouldnt just take the same units and make them cheaper. Also drop pods and razorbacks should be left in the SM codex. We dont need more equipment otherwise we are just the same as the SM. So i would say no plasma cannon pred either or storm bolters.

Focus more on makin our units better not givin them more stuff. Thats the loyalists job :p
 

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I Piss in your Cheerios
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Discussion Starter #15
I kind of agree - but I'm taking away with the other hand. I HOPE it will balance out - if not, I certainly want told! :)

Giving Renegades Razors is only fair, IMO - there's no good reason they weren't ALWAYS available to CSM, but GW made it that way, and my solution is to give them to armies like Huron Blackheart's...and Cypher would be shit without Land Speeders to give an Invul to! :wink:

+Rep for taking the time to respond. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #17
The work I've posted is either in my sig or linked on my blog (which is linked in my sig too)

The exceptions are my Vyper and Possessed rules, which are in Google Documents, here and here.
 

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how about land speeders for all, there is no reason why not
I was also thinking about 2 squads: Leigionaires and Renegades. Legionaires would have better stats but renegades would have better choices. This could potentially be an army rule so Terminators, Raptors etc could benefit
Legionaires could use Legion names instead of marks ie World Eaters(Berzerkers) or new legions like Alpha Legion(Infiltrate) or Iron Warriors(A rule for higher damage on guns or something) Stat-Line(without Legion upgrades) 5/5/4/4/1/4/10/2+
Renegades could access Razorbacks and have assault cannons etc, with vanilla csm statline and chaos marks
 
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