[The Wraithlord]

I was checking out Warseer for some new rumours and I came across this post regarding the Thousand Sons legion:

They suck. But with a lot of effort they can be made to work. Let's do a list, shall we?

1) Heavy weapons only on vehicles. This means that you have to spend a lot of points on fragile Predators and Dreadnoughts in order to take down enemy vehicles.

2) Slow. Very slow. You can choose between buying Deathtrap-pattern Rhinos or trying to make it to the objective at an average speed of 4.5" per turn. Coupled with the fact that a very clumsy butcher could count the number of scoring units you can fit in 1500 pts on one hand, you can see that they do not lend themselves well to objective-based missions.

3) Expensive. As if having to spend all those points on Heavy Support and Transports wasn't enough, your basic trooper costs 24 points. For what? A move-and-fire bolter with two wounds. You'd be far, far better off with the equivalent number of regular Marines.

4) Insta-kill. You pay through the nose for that extra wound only to have it ignored by almost everything except basic rifles. A single on-traget ordnance blast is likely to wipe out 25% of your infantry.

5) Psychic Powers. These effectively replace squad-based heavy and special weapons. Except that you can only have one per unit, it costs twice as much as a comparable weapon, does less and has a 33% chance of being shut down by a Librarian hiding in the corner of the table some where. Not that you'd have much chance of killing him even if he wasn't hiding.

6) Low Offensive Power. Even if you manage to make it to where you need to be, you'll find it difficult to actually do anything. People say massed bolters are good, and they are. The problem is, you don't HAVE massed bolters. You'll be lucky to fit 30 of them in 1500 pts. The only one doing any real damage is the Sorcerer with Wind of Chaos - a power available to any Chaos army - and power fist.

7) Power fists. And I mean power fists on both sides. With their shooting being so ineffective, many Thousand Sons players prefer to equip their Sorcerers for melee and duke it out in close combat. An army that's supposed to be shooty is forced to rush into combat if it wants to deal any real damage. The game becomes a slugging match with the Thousand Sons player hoping that his Sorcerer can fist enough of the enemy before he loses his 16 ablative wounds. Of course, those 24-pt models go down just as fast anyone else against enemy power fists.

To sum up: Slow, expensive, inflexible, ineffective and overpriced.

Now is it just me or has this guy hit the nail on the head with this post? I don't think I could sum up my feelings about the playability of the Tsons any better in all honesty and I am one of the many who is desperately hoping that the new Chaos codex coming out this year will finally fix their rules. And for pete's sake GW, if you do put the Chosen of Ahriman in the book, please specify if the sorcerer can teleport with the Rubric squad he is part of or not!!!

 

[Anphicar]

For a second i thought you would say "What a liar!" but you didn't, you acknowledge your army's weaknesses, yet you stand by it.

But yes, that is very true, all of it.

Especially the wind of chaos bit. I have played the Sons before and really that is all that did me harm (albeit was my fucking Archon.)

 

[uberschveinen]

While most of those points are accurate, the document is loaded with hyperbole. The individually-mentioned concerns are problems, but not on the scale the OP suggests they are.

 

[blkdymnd]

Haven't we already done this thread? I agree with some of the guys points, but most are a bit overexaggerated...

 

[DaemonsR'us]

Yeesh Ouch >.o gotta be frustrating to play with TS at least make them be able to use like some heavy weapons and special weapons at least, but doesnt seem to put any real clear restrictions on possesed or chosen, so can you still use them like normal? or are then limited to just sorcerers too?
As well as it doesnt even restrict obliterators from what i can see, doesnt even mention them, true only one squad of 3 but obliterators can make a diff, some one point out please if im missing something about TS in my codex though i am probably wrong missing something somewhere just thought id throw it out there

 

[blkdymnd]

No cults can use Obliterators. They are for Undivided legions only, like Raptors and such

 

[DaemonsR'us]

I see thx for clearing that up wasnt sure, but what about Chosen with Reaper autocannons and possesed with their daemonic upgrades?

 

[The Wraithlord]

The problem with Chosen and Possessed is that they are even more expensive than Rubrics. They aren't very cost effective in a regular list but when you use them in a TS list, you have to pay the cost for them, the mark, and then any weapons and psychic powers you want to use. And considering that you are paying the points to make them all sorcerers, it doesn't make sense simply because by that point, they are too expensive already to justify taking powers.

 

[blkdymnd]

Possessed definatley, I have used them in my own TS armies to great benefit.

And I've never used Chosen, but looking at the TS part of the codex, thier Chosen are listed as having no restrictions, so yeah I guess you could get a couple Reapers. Only problem is you're putting more spendy troops in an already somewhat expensive army...

 

[DaemonsR'us]

Yeah guess the massive amount of points would restrict your numbers even more and cut your already small number of marines, so i see its probably not worth it dwindiling already scarce troops, but on the other hand, possed and chosen terminators say to have one sqaud or so, already come with stats to added to their profiles, i dont kno im just tryin to help heh :?

 

[the cabbage]

I keep re-reading the codex to find a way to play thousand sons but I still cant find a way which will allow me a decent chance.

How would you feel about keeping the slow and purposeful but losing the extra wound? The points should drop way back to 16/17.

If that were the case I'd sign up tommorow!

 

[LongBeard]

I do agree with top post, they are definately one of the more 'challenging' Chaos armies. Their lack of heavy and special weapons while adding In the lack of mobility which Is key In 4ed screws them pretty bad.
Fallen Angel over on FLAME ON! posted this beast up a while back, could be an option with that many BoC's :twisted:

Lord with lightning claws, speaky bits, BoC, 3 thralls
Lieutenant with Dark blade, ccw, speaky bits, BoC, 3 thralls

5 Rubic Terminators incl champ with chainfist, ccw, BoC and 3 thralls

Favoured rubric squad with champ with fist, speaky bits, 3 thralls and BoC
Favoured rubric squad incl champ with fist, speaky bits, 1 thrall, winds of chaos and factory rhino.

Indirect defiler
Dread with twin las and daemonic possession.

 

[pathwinder14]

Thousand sons need better psychic abilities and the option to take 2 heavy weapons AND 2 special weapons per squad with the ability to move and fire all weapons.

I think that would make them worh taking.

 

[uberschveinen]

No, that would make them insane. With those abilities, the heavies and specials would cost at least double what you pay for them now and most likely a higher points tag on each individual model.

I think the best means of improving the list would be to lower the basic cost of each Dustboy by a fair few points. From there, a general reduction in the cost of psychic powers and the addition of Obliterators at the cost of Possessed (since the former seems far more Tzeenchian to me than the latter) and perhaps a lascannon-lite psychic power. This way, the list would encourage use of large numbers of warriors, backed up by a few powerful fire support options. This is far more in line with the way the Thousand Sons wage war than what the current list can produce.

 

[Anphicar]

I agree with uber on that one. The thousand sons would easily rip through every other army with those options.

But you are right. They woldbe worth taking!

 

[Wrath of Khaine]

In the last codex Bolt of Change was strength 9. They nerfed it to 8 now, which makes Thousand Sons eat it on armor penetration. I think favored rubric squads should be able to take a single heavy weapon. They were a powerful imperial legion after all and should have a small quantity of heavy weapons around or recently gained through warfare. They should be less points definitely.

-Khaine-

 

[pathwinder14]

I guess the real question is what can be done to make them better without making them broken?

Less points? More heavy weapon options? Move and fire heavy weapons? No intsta-death? LD required to assault them (they are trapped spirits after all)? Better Daemons?

 

[The Wraithlord]

No ID would go a LONG way imho. Having 2 wounds does you no good when you are being shot with ID weapons. I have seen a Basilisk shot take out almost an entire squad of Rubrics in one turn. When you are paying 250+ for each troop choice, that is a massive loss. No ID would make the mark a tab more worthwhile. I also think they should have access to special weapons at least. After all, if you can pull the trigger on a bolter....

As it stands though, they really do need an overhaul and something to make them more focused on magic I think. One thing I have always disliked was the idea that the Rubrics are automatons. Why not set the fluff up so that while their physical bodies have been destroyed, their armour is now basically their body? And if their spirits still inhabit the armour and allow them to be concious of the battlefield and such, why can they not learn to use different weapons, etc. The automaton thing just doesn't do it for me at all.

 

[Anphicar]

Thats true.

But thats also crazy, too. Some would object to that. But that would make the worth their points.

 

[DaemonsR'us]

Hrm... well no ID may be a little much for basic troops, but hell nids have synapse, but might add +1 base toughness so they cant be killed out right by S 8 & 9 weapons greatly reducing the ID weaps to TS marines, and maybe 1 heavy weapon OR one special using slow and purposeful rules, shaving off some points too would be nice for them as well