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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Good Evening, all.

After being monstrously busy, I have finally been able to have a flick through my shiny (and still cellophane'd, until this afternoon) codex.

My over-arching thoughts are that the codex has been simplified. I would imagine this this to provide a good, solid 'base-line' for the supplements that we're going to be receiving.

A few things I will note:

Kabalite Warriors
Been herded together reasonably well. You can construct a squad in a variety of ways, plenty of options.
5 man unit at its base - option for a Special Weapon (Shredder/Blaster).
Increase the unit to 10 - option for a Heavy Weapon (Dark Lance/Heat Lance/Splinter Cannon/Haywire Blaster).
Increase the unit to 20 - option for another weapon from each category.

Both the Haywire Blaster and Heat Lance are Assault weapons. So a unit can potentially have 2 Blasters and 2 Heat Lances - quite a bit of close range fire power for such a relatively cheap unit.
Another 20 man unit combo would be 2 Shredders and 2 Splinter Cannons. That is a lot of hits.

True-born are now an 'upgrade' from Warriors. The upgrade brings you an extra attack and increased leadership. 4 True-born can take Special Weapons and 2 can take Heavy Weapons, regardless of unit size (assuming you have 6 minimum).
Dracon (sergeant) upgrade for True-born brings you an extra attack (3 base), but by now your single T3 5+ model costs a whopping 21 points - over aspect warrior cost. No, thank you.

Archon
I am going to call him/her out as being worse in this edition.
Basic stats haven't changed.
However: No longer has access to combat drugs. Huskblade is now only AP3 - although it has had a drop in points, you still need the mandatory Soul Trap pairing, so the cost you saved, you have no spent. Soul Trap itself has been nerfed - you now gain +1 Str for each wound you cause in a challenge.
The Agoniser (4+ to wound, AP3) costs the same as the Huskblade, and doesn't need the Soul Trap. We'll buy that and stick with it, thank you.
Shadowfield (2++) is incredibly expensive (2/3's of the Archon's base cost), but has been improved to last the entire phase in which a save was failed - no more single dice rolling and praying to the dice gods.
Clone field is the budget version of its Umbral big brother, 4++. Half the cost of the Shadowfield - looking pretty viable in lower point games.

Interesting little combo that involves 2 of the 'Artifacts of Cruelty'.
The Armour of Misery + The Archangel of Pain. All enemy units within 6" (9" if you aren't using the armour's rules) of the Archon must take an LD test at -4 (-2 without the armour) or take wounds with no saves equal to how much the failed the test by. Nice little late game Nuke for taking OBJs.

There's also a cute, little, Master-Crafted pistol (Parasite's Kiss) that operates just like a splinter pistol that wounds on a 2+. Any unsaved wound caused restores a wound to the wielder. So cheap, you might as well.

All in All, a cheapo Archon with an Agoniser, Parasite's Kiss and a Clone field costs you 110 points. You get a Leader would is pretty up to a challenge and brings you LD 10 goodness. Not bad, but not the insta-pick, 135 point, CC monster from the last codex.

Warlord traits are garbage apart from one (number 4) that gives you Hatred.

Ravagers
Same points cost as before. One CRUCIAL difference.
Disintegrators are the default weapon - they have been nerfed. You no longer have your Plasma Cannon Equivalent shot. 36", Str5, AP2, Heavy3. 9 shots for a 110 point vehicle isn't bad.
If you want 3 Dark Lances instead, your Ravager now costs you 125 points. You can do the maths there. I say "WORTH" very loudly - take 3 of these like you have done since the 90s.

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Overall, pretty much the same codex with some units taken out (Vect) so we need to buy more 30 quid books. Some guess work, but I imagine the Dais of Destruction will be the 'mega-tank' and that Vect will be the 'mega-hero' this codex is so obviously lacking.

So yes, your Venom Spam lists are still where it is at. You'll still table or be tabled by turn 3 for 2-3 more years.

Anyone else have anything they wish to share?
 

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Rattlehead
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I think it has problems, and the worst part is that the problems it has are the same things that were problems in the old Codex. They're far too fragile, have inefficient anti-tank firepower constrained to two Battlefield Roles, have one Troops choice worth anything (Kabalites are reasonable, but very vulnerable to even light small-arms fire outside of their transports and their transports are incredibly fragile for their high cost, and Wyches are just total junk). They can still put out a bunch of anti-infantry shots, and they have some cute tricks with the Webway Portal and Medusae, but they have no real legs to stand on due to their incredible fragility - they're like Tau if you took away Tau's resilience (on vehicles and suits) and JSJ, or Imperial Guard if you took away Guard's armoured presence and cheapness, or Eldar if you took away their vehicular resilience and diversity of guns. I could see something revolving around Kabalites in Raiders, with the Raiders Jinking with Night Shields for 3+ cover, but it still doesn't take that much fire to take down a Raider even with cover and if the enemy brings Flamers, he doesn't even need to kill the transports to murder your occupants wholesale.

The Ravager did get worse, by the way - more expensive (because you take it with Dark Lances because you need anti-tank somewhere) as you mentioned, but it lost Aerial Assault - it now fires at reduced effectiveness if it moves, which is a big disadvantage.

The Archon didn't really get worse, I don't think, just different. No longer able to give out Assault Grenades with a Phantasm Launcher (which gives Incubi a bunch of problems), and no more AP2/Soultrap monster on the off chance that thing ever worked, but Webway Portal opens up some opportunities and he can still bring a Blaster (which, if you were bringing an Archon, was one of the main points in his favour anyway). Shadowfields working to the end of the phase in which they fail rather than shorting out as soon as you fail a save is a nice little buff (unless you get insta-killed, which seems to be the only time an Archon ever fails his save - I can hit him with thirty bolter shots and he'll live, but Overwatch with a Plasma Gun? Gets him every time).

The book seems like it'll play kinda the same way as the last book, but without Wyches to reliably punch out vehicles with their Haywire and with Ravagers becoming more expensive and less mobile, I think their inability to deal with tanks will significantly curb Venomspam (which was already showing it's age), and I'm not really sure what build can step in to fill that gap.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I would agree on pretty much everything - I know you've actually got some game time with the codex? - or at least, I imagine you have.

Incubi aren't worth a look. Lack of Grenades has killed them. Not that I'd have those nasty models in my army, anyway.

I'm most curious to see what 'ultimate' units are in the Vect supplement. As you said, there is very little in the way of 'killer meta' in the book.
 

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Agree with basically everything midnight has said. The gems are the low costed 5 man scourge unit with 4 haywire guns causing deep strike nightmares, and a Webway/shield archon with scytheguard besties popping down and blenderificating their unfortunate target. Nothing else has changed, really.
 

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Rattlehead
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Agree with basically everything midnight has said. The gems are the low costed 5 man scourge unit with 4 haywire guns causing deep strike nightmares, and a Webway/shield archon with scytheguard besties popping down and blenderificating their unfortunate target. Nothing else has changed, really.
The Haywire trick is neat, sure, but if I remember rightly they're kinda short-ranged, DE have no scatter mitigation outside of the Webway Portal (making them inefficient as a suicide unit as they end up being expensive), and outside of Knights it's not massively common to see high-value vehicles that DE aren't already very efficient at killing with Dark Lances (because while Dark Lances suck at killing light/mid armour, which is a major problem with DE, they're really quite good at dealing with Land Raiders) and Knights can just apply their Shield to whatever side you drop into (although, that said, dropping behind a Knight and forcing it to open up it's front armour to your Dark Lances *could* work - it would need to be in the open, but Ion Shield makes some players a little complacent about their cover saves).

The Archon/D-Scythes thing, and it's close cousin the Medusae-star trick, don't really work all that functionally. If they were Str4 AP5 and cheap, sure, roll with it, but their amazing statline and high cost work against them a lot here. You can only kill up to a flamer template's length away, which is a little under 8". You'd need to face a pretty weird unit who wouldn't lose all their models up to 8" away and then some wasted wounds, and even if one time you came down and flamer'd away an entire unit of dudes because they were all clumped up, you'd only do it once per opponent. It's reasonably easily defeated by bubble-wrap, since you only have to block off the amount of space taken up by a Raider (which is quite large in terms of trying to Deep Strike it).

That said, you can totally appear and then punk out some Paladins pretty hard, so if your opponent really loves Meganobz or Paladins or other stupidly expensive units that rely on cover/have bad invulns, go ahead (and if you Deep Strike next to a Battlewagon, you can laugh maniacally as you do 5D6 Str4 AP2 hits on the squad inside and everyone dies horribly).
 

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Question still remains - if you want a shooty and fast moving force, what does DE bring to the table that Eldar (or even Khan Bikers) don't?

Answer is "Not much" I'm afraid.
 
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