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IRONBORN
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I've just finished Angel Exterminatus (Not the greatest but also not the worst IMO) and the main reason I like the book is Graham McNeil's portrayal of Perturabo. I like that he showed a sympathetic & likable character who was an honourable man with grand visions and dreams, who only joined Horus' side through manipulation, guilt & shame. A character underestimated (and some would say looked down upon) by his brothers, an introvert with hidden strength.

Anyway, enough about Perturabo's characteristics. The whole point of this thread is finding out what other people's theories are on Perturabo's character change from the melancholic idealist to the man who sacrificed gene-seed to become a Daemon Prince. I know a lot probably happened in the time between Angel Exterminatus and the Iron Cage incident, so what do people think happened between then?

Do you think exposure to Chaos finally took its toll on him? The bitterness of the whole HH with brother fighting brother hammered out his idealistic & naive conceptions? or is it to do with the rivalry with Dorn? To prove once and for all he was the better strategist with the Iron Cage incident then to cement his superiority with acension to Daemonhood?

I'd really like to know your theories & ideas. :grin:
 

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I just finished a reread of Angel Ex yesterday. I know it got a lot of bad reviews but I liked it the first time and I still enjoyed it on my second read.

Like you, I have a hard time imagining what transpired to turn Perturabo from the honourable idealist in Angel Ex to someone who would sacrifice gene seed to become a daemon prince... let alone someone who would even follow Chaos.

But hey, that's why I'm not a writer. I'm sure there will be books detailing Perturabo's fall to chaos in the future.
 

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I just hope its handled better than Fulgrim's fall.

Although on that note, it's not actually stated what Perturabo sacrificed to ascend is it (Fulgrim doesn't sacrifice gene-seed so that may not be necessary)? If that's the case there's a potentially interesting take on the Iron Cage whereby it's a penance for both Primarchs. Dorn uses it to punish himself for his 'failure' to protect the Emperor and to purge his Legion; while Perturabo uses it to purge himself, sacrificing his humanity, his honour and his ideals in order to ensure that he is prepared for the future of his Legion and the Long War. Totally just thought of that on the spot, and it could be very, very wrong, but I kinda like it.
 
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I just hope its handled better than Fulgrim's fall.

Although on that note, it's not actually stated what Perturabo sacrificed to ascend is it (Fulgrim doesn't sacrifice gene-seed so that may not be necessary)? If that's the case there's a potentially interesting take on the Iron Cage whereby it's a penance for both Primarchs. Dorn uses it to punish himself for his 'failure' to protect the Emperor and to purge his Legion; while Perturabo uses it to purge himself, sacrificing his humanity, his honour and his ideals in order to ensure that he is prepared for the future of his Legion and the Long War. Totally just thought of that on the spot, and it could be very, very wrong, but I kinda like it.
The Index Astartes articles covering the Iron Cage incident mention that he did in fact sacrifice gene-seed to become a Daemon-Prince. Specifically the gene-seed from the Imperial Fists that they were unable to recover in their retreat.
 

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Bane of Empires
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The portrayal of Perturabo is one of the main reasons I didn't like Angel Exterminatus. Crimson Fist had him spot on.

So as far as I'm concerned he shouldn't have had to have changed his nature/personality in order to be willing to sacrifice gene-seed in order to ascend.
 

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The portrayal of Perturabo is one of the main reasons I didn't like Angel Exterminatus. Crimson Fist had him spot on.
Not really, his demeanour was wrong. Iron warriors are supposed to be efficient, smashing your own troops in the face and losing your temper is not that. IW's are not really supposed to be all that angry but for some reason authors cannot seem to differentiate between hatred and anger.

I'm not saying his portrayal in AE was that much better either by the way but i do think it was a step in the right direction.
 

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Bane of Empires
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Not really, his demeanour was wrong. Iron warriors are supposed to be efficient, smashing your own troops in the face and losing your temper is not that.
No, but smashing your own troops in the face and losing your temper when your warriors are not able to comfortably engage and destroy a vastly outnumbered enemy fleet (an enemy that is particularly hated by you and your Legion) sounds about right.

His portrayal in Angel Exterminatus went too far in the other direction. He was actually very likeable in AE, when in reality (especially after the massacres of Olympia and Isstvan V) he was supposed to be consumed by hatred and bitterness.
 

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I preferred AE to the truly awful Betrayer. It did have it's faults but personally I enjoyed the way Perturabo was portrayed. I think the overall idea was to show how an introverted frustrated genius like Perturabo slowly starts to realise that he can throw off all the shackles that have held him back.

I get the impression he felt that prior to the Heresy he was trying to be something he wasn't and apart from Magnus he counted none of the Primarchs as brothers as none of them understood him or appreciated his skills.

I think AE shows how his long stored up frustration and anger with everything to do with the Emperor and his brother Primarchs is starting to lead him down the path where hatred of the uncaring Emperor, the ungrateful Imperium and his supercilious brothers lead him to sacrifice his humanity in order to have all eternity to take his revenge.

I think that Crimson Fist takes the story a little further down this same path. His hatred and frustration are that little bit worse. He feels that his traitorous brothers would be laughing at him that his entire fleet led his advanced Primarch mind couldn't even destroy the Imperial Fist's heavily outnumbered fleet not led by a Primarch.

I think this battle when initially the Imperial Fists are smashing the Iron Warrior fleet stretches my credulity to it's limits considering in AE we see how Peturabo's mind is able to formulate battle plans on an amazing scale and clearly shows how superior his mind is to a normal Space Marine.

This is a faint echo of the space battle scene in the abomination of a book which is Betrayer, which also wants us to believe that Primarchs can be out thought and out tacticked by mere human fleet commanders. At least in Crimson Fist Perturabo is being out tacticked by a Space Marine fleet commander who had the advantage of their geneseed which passed on some of the Primarch's own genius so the gap isn't as large as it is in Betrayer.

I seriously wanted to use the memory removal thing from Men in Black on myself after reading the the space battle scene in Betrayer to remove that section from my mind as it was the most ridiculous stupid thing I've ever read. Argh my own butchers nails are pulsing at the memory of that cursed book. I swear I'll never read it again. I also wonder whether the book was written that way to inflict such fury on people that they would go some way to knowing how Angron felt? If that is the case it works like a charm.

Back on topic, I'm going to enjoy reading more about Perturabo and his change from AE to the Iron Cage. How anger, bitterness and jealousy can wreak such havoc on a mind as mighty as a Primarch's.
 

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i Thought Betrayer was great, could you point out what part was the part wherein humans outsmarted a primarch? because i dont seem to recall a time in which that happened in betrayer.

Unless you mean that part when Lorgar and Angron almost died, which was perfectly plausible and did not in the least downplay their martial prowess.
 

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First stupid thing:

The Ultramarine fleet arriving in orbit around Nuceria. They are led by Guilliman personally. I accept their fleet are battered having come from Calth. However Guilliman, one of the greatest minds humanity has ever created decides that the best course of action is to fly his battered fleet right past the Word Bearers and World Eaters fleets so they can be ripped to pieces and then land piecemeal.

For reasons unknown to everyone, this awesome mind doesn't think using his strategies and mind to position his fleet in the best way to rip the Word Bearer and World Eaters fleets to pieces is a good idea. Oh come on please.

2nd stupid thing:
Even when Guilliman sees his plan is getting his fleet ripped to pieces while trying to fly past the enemy fleets he doesn't then change the plan. The mind who writes the Codex Astartes and who we know will be similar to that of Perturabo's skills demonstrated in AE, doesn't change his mind and think "this isn't working as well as it could do so I'll change it". He decides to continue and land his forces piece meal where they are then decimated.

3rd stupid thing:
I could have accepted the Ultramarine fleet being battered if another Primarch was controlling the enemy fleet but we're expected to accept that a human fleet commander (no matter how experienced) is able to come up with a plan which is superior to that of one of the 4 best strategists of all the Primarchs in my opinion. (The others being Horus, Alpharius and Lion El'Jonson).

So to sum up my hatred of this scene:

There's no chance that a strategist like Guilliman would think it was a good plan to simply fly all his already battered ships into to the teeth of the combined Word Bearers and World Eaters Fleets

There's no chance that even if the above did happen, that he wouldn't have tried to change his plan to something more effective rather than continue with the original stupid plan.

Finally I think it's ridiculous that a Human fleet commander would be able to come up with a plan superior to the plan created by a Primarch. However to be fair such is the stupidity of the plan that the author makes Guilliman do that her plan doesn't actually need to be that good to be better than it.

Basically the Ultramarines were used as pantomime enemies so the Word Bearers and World Eaters could beat someone. I've seen more effective believable enemies watching Alladin at the theatre with kids shouting "he's behind you". They didn't use any of their renowned strategic prowess anywhere in the book.

It's my opinion that the book is one big fanboy story for the World Eaters. The basic premise is that all that needs to happen for the World Eaters to overcome any strategy or defence is for their nails to bite deeper.

That's pretty much how Armatura falls - described as one of the greatest fortress worlds in the Imperium, it falls without needing an orbital bombardment or the Word Bearers needing to summon daemons. A fortress is likely to have immense defensive positions, massive guns to defend it and we know it had a billion normal troops defending it.

In a stand up battle these billion troops would stand no chance against Space Marines but when entrenched within fortresses manning massive weaponry they would have have been able to inflict fearful casualties on any attackers especially since the fortresses weren't damaged by any orbital bombardment. Are these fearful casualties described or are the battle scenes about all the attacks succeeding? Do we see mention of any fortresses? No, not even one. How about defensive weaponry, again nothing.

I would have been able to accept Armatura falling in the way it did if it hadn't been described as a f***ing fortress world? Does the author even know what qualifies a planet as a fortress as I think not considering his portrayal of it.

Now I'm not saying there are no positive points in the book, just not many. I'd say I enjoyed 5% of it which is the few scenes where Kharne and Argel Tal chat, Lorgar talks to Angron and Magnus chats to Lorgar.

However these few good points don't make up for the fact that in my book, for a warfare book to be good it needs a good enemy and the Ultramarines were portrayed as useless pantomime enemies all the way through who decided that they wouldn't follow any established fluff on them and not use any strategies or tactics at all.

I know that my opinion won't be shared by everyone and I don't expect people to agree. However in my opinion Betrayer is simply one of the worst 5 books I've ever read.
 

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Damn this was actually hilarious. I wanted to rep you again Zera, but wasn't allowed. Stupid rules. At least consider yourself bookmarked as this one is damn funny with the idiot balls handed out.
Cheers, it took me ages to write as I was getting angry even thinking about the book, and it's hard to formulate a decent sentence while doing an Angron impression!! :grin:
 

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Cruel Commissar
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I must read this book as Guilliman acting as stupid as Abbadon in fanon is something I don't want to miss. Just one question: The planet wasn't like a death-star which could blow Emperor-class battleships from space with just a powerful beam? Was it?
 

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I must read this book as Guilliman acting as stupid as Abbadon in fanon is something I don't want to miss. Just one question: The planet wasn't like a death-star which could blow Emperor-class battleships from space with just a powerful beam? Was it?
No, it's just described as a fortress world. It had massive orbital defences which were annihilated by the Blessed Lady and her sister ship Trisagion (of the Furious Abyss class) which is fair enough as they were brutes. However for me a fortress world has immense ground defences as well and it's these which are sadly missing. I simply don't believe that Guilliman would have overlooked this aspect of the defences.
 

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No, it's just described as a fortress world. It had massive orbital defences which were annihilated by the Blessed Lady and her sister ship Trisagion (of the Furious Abyss class) which is fair enough as they were brutes. However for me a fortress world has immense ground defences as well and it's these which are sadly missing. I simply don't believe that Guilliman would have overlooked this aspect of the defences.
It did mention they had over a billion soldiers on the planet. Thousands of ultramarines on the planet...with countless more undergoing the process of becoming gene enhanced. Don't really remember how the Word Bearers/World Eaters won the battle. I will have to reread it.
 

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Craw-Daddy
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I think between this and the Iron Cage Incident that Perturabo slowly loses any connection to his legion and his ambition to the corporeal realm.

Its hard to say where Perturabo truly loses his responsibilities to his legion and the rebellion. IT could be either the Iron Cage or the very walls of Terra. I chose to think, any ambition, satisfaction, or material goal in the material realm is lost in Perturabo that last time he has an exstacy feeling after tearing down his rivals defences. After this I think he starts to let the corruption lead him to great ambitions.

As far as McNeill's and French's depictions, I feel that neither really gave him justice. Both scenarios really made him incompetent to the point that you don't really believe the traits that make him who he is. McNeil's portrayal would have made more sense before Istvaan. I think Istvaan really creates the monsters and inhuman traitors primarchs who they are from that point on. I think ADB does that well with how dark the traitors appear over their decisions. I often wonder how Perturabo's portrayal looks to ADB, because of his more realistic portrayal of scenarios and character, despite things I still question him about.
 

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First stupid thing:
Although the rage is funny you are making a few errors I think.

- Firstly: the battle between the fleets of Gulliman and Word Bearers/World Eaters doesn't happen at Armatura, that happens above Angron's old "home planet" (nunceria/de'sha?) which has no orbital defences and where the inhabitants struggle to understand what the dropships/pods falling from the sky are. WE and WB are happily slaughtering the inhabitants as Gulliman surprises them with his ragtag fleet.

- Armatura gets taken by large parts of two legions (maybe even the whole of the WE, not sure on that one) before that after a prolonged campaign directed by two primarchs vs (Gulliman hadn't arrived yet) "regular" space marines, with the help of 4 of the most powerful battleships in the imperium: Two legion flagships and two Furious Abyss class ships.

- Although no UM fan, Gulliman's tactical decisions when he does arrive are not completely without merit. Time is a factor as he wants to get to the WB/WE ground forces before they can entrench/escape and he needs to break past 3 very powerful ships: 2 of the legion flagships and an abyss class (most other parts of the legion fleets having been scattered across the Ultramar empire on Lorgars orders. Which, as both the traitor legions are concentrated in/around a single ciy, don't need to cover the whole planet and can stick together. He can't take them on one on one so decides to work with what he has: numbers. In the end, both those legion flagships are destroyed and the abyss damaged. + take into account that the Primarchs are not above emotion and after having just seen a big part of his mini empire murdered/raped/pillaged it's not unthinkable Gulliman might be a bit rash in some of his decision making and pursuing a personal vendetta.
 

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. In the end, both those legion flagships are destroyed and the abyss damaged. + take into account that the Primarchs are not above emotion and after having just seen a big part of his mini empire murdered/raped/pillaged it's not unthinkable Gulliman might be a bit rash in some of his decision making and pursuing a personal vendetta.
Minor nitpick: only the Word Bearer flagship is destroyed. The World Eater one survives.
 
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