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I highly recommended the Eisenhorn and Ravenor trilogies. Make sure to read Eisenhorn first, though.

Spoiler tags in the future please, especially for those (like myself) who have still yet to read the book. - darlreever
I have read them but ages ago. I'll get on it once I take my sweet time with ToH.
 

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Allot of artistic licensing was used in those books. According to the emperors gift which was written after and makes direct references to both series he has no potential of his own. He was a mirror.
No. Being a teenager he has, as per The Emperor's Gift, "no capacity to access his own innate psychic strength". It also goes on to say that he has "Immense potential for psychic mastery."

It's stated several times in The Emperor's Gift that Hyperion could--and eventually becomes--extremely powerful.
 

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No. Being a teenager he has, as per The Emperor's Gift, "no capacity to access his own innate psychic strength". It also goes on to say that he has "Immense potential for psychic mastery."

It's stated several times in The Emperor's Gift that Hyperion could--and eventually becomes--extremely powerful.
Isn't that what I said?
 

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Isn't that what I said?
Nope. Not at all.

Let me zone in on the part where you went astray.

both series [said] he [had] no potential of his own
He has plenty of potential on his own. "Immense" amounts, to quote the Inquisition.

Whether or not he has the ability to access said potential is irrelevant to whether or not he has potential.
 

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Craw-Daddy
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I understand the importance and even necessity of how the Inquisition, Daemon Hunters, and Ultramarines (including Guilliman's history. However, I feel the stuff is pretty farfetched. I still feel like there's a stretch at what BL and GW are trying to do with their fluff. I'll see how it goes. If wave length could represent 40k fluff, those topics to me seem like very skewed high frequencies.
 

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Craw-Daddy
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Which topics? Just stories and books about the Inquisition and Ultramarines in general?
Well for instance, how much power the Inquisition has gained throughout the years. I just feel that realistically the High Lords and Guilliman's allies would remain the strongest and most influential force in the Imperium. The new Daemon Hunters lore is something else entirely which doesn't trouble me too much. As far as Guilliman goes, I'm quite surprised he is able to gain enough support and strength to essentially force the Imperium to his will. Most say that the Imperium in general was upset with Dorn for "failing" to keep the walls intact and perhaps the Emperor's life.

With such a overwhelming force against them, and everything Dorn went through with most of the Imperium, I would think there would be some sort of understanding that they were all against Chaos together. It wasn't so much a game where the Imperial worlds were watching the fight and shouting from the crowd at everything wrong Dorn was doing. They were in it together.

But essentially, its at least been assumed that is why Guilliman was able to force his opponents to accept his codex and his Imperium.
 

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Well for instance, how much power the Inquisition has gained throughout the years. I just feel that realistically the High Lords and Guilliman's allies would remain the strongest and most influential force in the Imperium.
The strength of the Inquisition stems from its decentralized nature. The High Lords just get most day-to-day stuff too late to do anything about it. Even stuff like Armageddon or something just takes too long for it to reach the ears of the High Lords, through all the channels of bureaucracy it normally has to wind through, then they have the deliberate, and decide on a course of action, and then finally shoot the answer back.

The Inquisition is at ground zero, usually.

Plus there's just so much momentum behind the Inquisition. People "know" the Emperor is a god. They also know that the Inquisition also speaks for the one true "god". How else are people supposed to react? It's so ingrained in the peoples' mind that the Emperor is a literal god, that to go against the physical manifestation of His will would be insane.

As far as Guilliman goes, I'm quite surprised he is able to gain enough support and strength to essentially force the Imperium to his will.
Remember, it wasn't just Guilliman giving the a-ok. Corax and the Khan also sided with Guilliman.

Guilliman was also the only primarch to actually build an incredibly prosperous and productive empire. That was probably a giant checkmark in his favor.

It also made sense for those who opposed Guilliman to buy into the Codex Astartes. Who had the the greatest concentration of Space Marines in post-Scouring Imperium? Guilliman. Who had the most to lose by breaking the Legions into Chapters? Guilliman.

I would think there would be some sort of understanding that they were all against Chaos together.
I think Guilliman was fully aware that either they stuck together or died. That's why he made the Codex.

It wasn't "you're with me or against me!" but more "we need to work together without killing each other, so here's how we're going to do it..."

At least in my opinion.
 

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Cruel Commissar
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Oh Guilliman was of the with me or against me-routine against the Imperial Fists as the Imperial Navy even fired on them. With the rest he managed to cooperate, but towards the Imperial Fists he was a true bully who even dared calling Dorn a rebel.
 

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The Emperor Protects
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Who had the the greatest concentration of Space Marines in post-Scouring Imperium? Guilliman. Who had the most to lose by breaking the Legions into Chapters? Guilliman..
You really believe he lost anything by breaking his Legion down? You don't think that every single one of those chapters that were made up of the Ultramarines wouldn't come together should he call them without a moments hesitation? He lost nothing, just made the logistics of his 'Legion' or legion of chapters, a little more challenging.
 

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You don't think that every single one of those chapters that were made up of the Ultramarines wouldn't come together should he call them without a moments hesitation?
If that's how you think it panned out, then no one lost anything. With that line of logic, if Dorn decided to ring the dinner bell and all the Imperial Fists successors came a runnin', then Dorn had nothing to lose as well. Might as well accept the Codex and pretend nothing else came of it.

I'm guessing Guilliman also saw that the primarchs were doomed to die or otherwise be separated from his sons. Decentralizing the Space Marine power was essential for removing the chance of massive Space Marine civil war.
 

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Bane of Empires
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You really believe he lost anything by breaking his Legion down? You don't think that every single one of those chapters that were made up of the Ultramarines wouldn't come together should he call them without a moments hesitation? He lost nothing, just made the logistics of his 'Legion' or legion of chapters, a little more challenging.
I agree with you. Guilliman must have known that in the long-term his Legion's successors would have splintered, drifted and gone their own way - forging their own alliances, traditions and feuds - severing their ties with their parent Chapter. But in the short term (in the lifetime of the Primarchs) it's near-impossible to imagine that the amalgamation of successor Chapters created during the Second Founding (or at least the vast majority of them) wouldn't have answered their Primarch's call.

In essence, I don't think Guilliman did lose much from the Codex reforms. For example, we know that the Ultramarines and a significant number of their successors campaigned together against the Night Lords on Tsagualsa ('The XIII Legion in all but name' as Void Stalker puts it). The Codex reforms were necessary in the long term, but in Guilliman's lifetime he still could have wielded the power of a Legion if he so wished. Similarly I can't imagine the Black Templars, Soul Drinkers or Crimson Fists would have refused the summons of Rogal Dorn following the Second Founding.

Might as well accept the Codex and pretend nothing else came of it.
I think it was more about principle in Dorn's case. He didn't want to split his Legion because he didn't think it was necessary, he wasn't the visionary that Guilliman was. Also, to quote the IA, "he could not see why humanity would not trust the Imperial Fists because of what the Traitor Legions had done".

I'm guessing Guilliman also saw that the primarchs were doomed to die or otherwise be separated from his sons. Decentralizing the Space Marine power was essential for removing the chance of massive Space Marine civil war.
Yep. :)
 

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I do think its interesting at the choice of allies that joined Guilliman for the codex. I mean, Corax, and Khan...

Past fluff has stated the other primarchs either had no say or were against it. I wonder if that will remain as canon. As far as Khan and Corax goes, its very telling when analyzing their views of the Imperium and even how Horus initially viewed their loyalty. There is some irony if you view Guilliman's codex as a betrayal against the Emperor and his Imperium, and the fact that Khan and Corax follow it.
 

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Craw-Daddy
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You really believe he lost anything by breaking his Legion down? You don't think that every single one of those chapters that were made up of the Ultramarines wouldn't come together should he call them without a moments hesitation? He lost nothing, just made the logistics of his 'Legion' or legion of chapters, a little more challenging.
I agree, its very telling. The Ultramarines have become the Imperium. Their gene seed is chosen to build more chapters than any other, even though the Iron Hands, and I believe the Dark Angels also have good gene seed.
 

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I do think its interesting at the choice of allies that joined Guilliman for the codex. I mean, Corax, and Khan...
It makes sense those two joined.

In Scars (amongst other sources) that the Khan likes to keep his men separated. Centralizing their power would make them rest on their laurels, much like the nobility that ruled the Khan's world before he conquered them.

Breaking his Legion into Chapters would be analogous to him breaking the world-wide empire he had made on his homeplanet back into feuding tribes.

And of course Corax's Legion paid a heavy price for the consolidated powers of the Legions.

Plus I figure Raven Guard operations wouldn't lend themselves to open, attrition-based warfare--something that Legions can do but Chapters not so much. It probably didn't hurt him too much either, in terms of operation effectiveness.
 

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I really don't like the idea of Tau being under the influence of Ethereals due to some sort of pheromone control. I just find this a lame cop-out. My understanding is that (besides the apparent Eldar influence), the Tau are successful because of the following reasons:
1: They learn from their history (unlike humans)
2: They are immune to superstition, which doesn't hold them back on a technological level (unlike humans)
3: They all agree (besides Farsight and his crew) on an ideology that has obvious benefits to the entire species.
4: Their logical approach means that they don't have petty infighting over social positions.
5: Their sensible "let's make this happen" approach.
The pheromone thing just panders to the "need moar grimdark", and it cheapens the fluff potential of the faction.

Also, every Tau-related novel and short story that has been published is absolutely, spectacularly bad (eyes on you, Shadowsun).
 

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I do think its interesting at the choice of allies that joined Guilliman for the codex. I mean, Corax, and Khan...

Past fluff has stated the other primarchs either had no say or were against it. I wonder if that will remain as canon. As far as Khan and Corax goes, its very telling when analyzing their views of the Imperium and even how Horus initially viewed their loyalty. There is some irony if you view Guilliman's codex as a betrayal against the Emperor and his Imperium, and the fact that Khan and Corax follow it.
I also find it interesting that guilliman decided that splitting the legions was the best course of action.

Even though the loyalists could have joined horus at any time but didn't to me it stands to reason that they're loyalty is absolute. Unless he had other reasons to want to limit their power.
 

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I also find it interesting that guilliman decided that splitting the legions was the best course of action.

Even though the loyalists could have joined horus at any time but didn't to me it stands to reason that they're loyalty is absolute. Unless he had other reasons to want to limit their power.
Simply put, because there was no all-guiding Emperor anymore. No main figurehead where previously a disagreement meant almost nothing in light of the Emperor's knowledge and authority. "..buuut dad.."

Who's to say which son might in the future want a greater vision or plan for the Imperium that the other primarchs didn't agree with. Even just minor disagreements that might flare up and scare the citizens of a recovering Imperium. There had to be a separation of their powers [just in case].
 

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Even though the loyalists could have joined horus at any time but didn't to me it stands to reason that they're loyalty is absolute.
No one's loyalty was absolute. A couple of reasons:

1. Guilliman knew about the corrupting powers of Chaos. As he says to the Lion in The Unremembered Empire, "Our brothers, even the Lupercal, have not turned against us. They have been turned."

Guilliman himself had a near brush of that in Know no Fear when Erebus strikes him with the Anathema. No one is above reproach, even the Primarchs who stood fast with the Emperor.

2. Everyone dies. Even the Primarchs. And while today's marines may be staunchly loyal...who says their successors will be? Or theirs that come after them? Or them?

No sense of keeping all your eggs in so few baskets.
 

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A particular bit of fluff I've always hated was Lucius being able to come back to life. Absurd. If the plot ever moves on I'd hope he gets killed by a carnifex or something that wouldn't think twice about the kill and he'd remain dead forever

I'm a nid player myself but don't like the nid fluff of totally consuming planets at the speed they do it. At the very least I'd like the idea of taking back and terraforming these places to be a possibility, or it would be better if the process was a lot slower than it seems to be. Like hundreds of years to consume an entire planet so the fleet either puts down anchor for a long time or they have to move on to continue the invasion. Basically any kind of limitation that makes the tyranid invasion of the universe a bit less OP.

Definitely on board with those saying the comedy of orks is a bit jarring. Whenever I've considered doing an ork army it was always based more on a combination of Elder Scrolls orsimer, LOTR orcs and Halo brutes. More intelligent orks who are still brutal, warlike and generally hostile but not brain dead clowns

Well they DO have rending - Apparently it's on a 2+ in the books, in comparison to the game :p
It used to be supported in the game too. At one time their attacks just ignored armour saves and back then terminators didn't even have an invulnerable. In playing terms the idea of using terminators against a genestealer infested space hulk would have been the stupidest idea imaginable since they'd put up no better fight in combat than tacticals or scouts. The more sensible approach would have been to use scouts with bolters in those days. Or bog standard guard infantry even!

I imagine the old space hulk game must have been a bit different to 40k because on a board with winding corridors (no change of long range fire) and stealers outnumbering termies 2:1 there'd be no realistic way of the terminators winning. If they get one round of shooting with a storm bolter they would kill one stealer sometimes, but then the remaining stealer would charge, land two hits, wound once and kill their guy. Game over.
 
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