[ckcrawford]

You could just assume that everything written about the space marines in the codex is imperial propaganda. Same with the necrons, it's an imperial book written based on scraps of information they gleaned from their encounters with the crons.

The sad thing is that the book should be cannon due to the fact certain characters in the series actually effect the here and now of the 40k universe.

 

[Brobaddon]

And then the whole depiction of very human 40k Space Marine usually urks me. You don't take children from the worst hellholes in the Imperium, indoctrinate them with nothing but loyalty to the Imperium, hatred for its enemies, and how to murder those enemies, and come out with a relatively normal human being.

Not a fan of Salamanders then I take it? I must admit while I like how Vulkan was depicted in " Vulkan Lives " , I found it hard to believe that an astartes legion could like humans to such a degree as them.....

I mean sure, It could be said that Vulkan understood humans since he grew up with them and defended them against Dark Eldar... but yeah, the whole concept seems a bit stretched. I guess Vulkan was Emperor's " humanness " or whatever.

As for always bothered me about 40k, I'd have to say Orks and their concept. I was never into their comedical aspect among the grimdark universe. I'd say a brutal and powerful race as them always deserved to be more than an object of jokes... But whatever.

The other part is of course Grey Knights fap. The mighty Demon Primarch Angron stopped by some newb grey knight psyker.

I had to facepalm myself few times.

 

[hailene]

Not a fan of Salamanders then I take it? I must admit while I like how Vulkan was depicted in " Vulkan Lives " , I found it hard to believe that an astartes legion could like humans to such a degree as them.....

30k marines and 40k marines are two totally different beasts, in my mind. It was a different age.

How they were indoctrinated, how old they were, the level of human-astartes interaction...all completely different.

The mighty Demon Primarch Angron stopped by some newb grey knight psyker.

He wasn't stopped by Hyperion. Hyperion merely broke Angron's blade.

Also keep in mind that Hyperion was notably powerful psyker amongst the Grey Knights...which is a Chapter of powerful psykers in of itself.

 

[Brobaddon]

> Breaking his blade and reducing his connection to material word and his power significantly in my mind > by stopping/defeating him.

Talented psyker or not, there are literally several sm psykers who are much more powerful than hyperion and would still probably get their ass kicked by Angron.

Greyknightplotarmor ftw.

 

[hailene]

Breaking his blade and reducing his connection to material word and his power significantly in my mind

Where did it say that it reduced his connection to the material world or even reduced Angron's power significantly?

> by stopping/defeating him.

So breaking Angron's blade is a feat more impressive than actually defeating Angron ?

Talented psyker or not, there are literally several sm psykers who are much more powerful than hyperion

Source? We're not really given any sort of power reading for any of the Space Marine psykers. Even comparing feats is a dubious prospect since each individual has certain affinities and skills. An incredibly powerful telekine might crush a warhound but have difficulty holding a telepathic conversation with someone in the same room. Apples to oranges.

 

[Brobaddon]

Where did it say that it reduced his connection to the material world or even reduced Angron's power significantly?

Hm you're right, it didn't, I just assumed ( since it was a while since i last read the book )because of the warp-material world demon thingy.

Albeit apparently he was less formidable without his weapons since that was the breaking point where he got banished.

So breaking Angron's blade is a feat more impressive than actually defeating Angron ?

Depends on how you look at it. He was the one who largely ensured Angron's defeat. It is truly an immense feat, provided I could buy into such a thing. Which I'm not.

Source? We're not really given any sort of power reading for any of the Space Marine psykers. Even comparing feats is a dubious prospect since each individual has certain affinities and skills. An incredibly powerful telekine might crush a warhound but have difficulty holding a telepathic conversation with someone in the same room. Apples to oranges

There are several sm pyskers who are among the most powerful ones in Imperium, namely Tigurius, Njall ( who actually managed to defeat a chaos space marine warband/army with his summoned storm as well as blasting a bloodthirster apart- source- Stormcaller short novel ), Mephiston and many other.

 

[Child-of-the-Emperor]

The 'comedic nature' of the Orks winds me up.

Can't think of anything else.

 

[hailene]

He was the one who largely ensured Angron's defeat.

Source?

We have no idea how the rest of the fight panned out.

It could have been Captain Taremar that won most of that fight. Or the weapons of Enceldaus and Galeo that speared Angron's wrists. Or the 80+ other Grey Knights living at the moment.

Or, most likely of all, a more even contribution of everyone involved.

It is truly an immense feat, provided I could buy into such a thing. Which I'm not.

It's up to you to believe it or not, but I think it makes a fair amount of sense. Angron was being assaulted by 100 psychic powers purposely created to fight daemons. Their very presence caused lesser daemons to vacate the matterium.

Hyperion, as I said before, had incredible amounts of psychic power. Combined with his Reflective Psychic...surrounded and connected to 100 of some of the most powerful psychic warriors the Imperium could muster...

I think it's reasonable. It was hardly Hyperion besting Angron in a one on one duel.

I'm personally of the opinion that if Angron hadn't ascended, the Grey Knights would have lost. It was his daemonic nature that sealed his doom. A rock, paper, scissors sort of issue.

re are several sm pyskers who are among the most powerful ones in Imperium

You totally missed my apples to oranges analogy, didn't you?

And you're using psychic feats as a ruler ? Wouldn't, you know, the breaker of the Black Blade rank higher than those feats?

If so, then by our own measuring system, then Hyperion would be a stronger psyker than those you listed.

And if the breaking of the Black Blade is NOT as impressive of feats as you listed, then Hyperion is in fact weaker than those Librarians...and his feat would surely be more believable for you?

 

[Reaper45]

The 'comedic nature' of the Orks winds me up.

Can't think of anything else.

Orks are the only faction who really understand what's going on.

The galaxy is never going to be at peace again, so they may as well enjoy the burning and killing of anything that moves.

 

[Child-of-the-Emperor]

The galaxy is never going to be at peace again

When has it ever been at peace? :wink:

so they may as well enjoy the burning and killing of anything that moves.

Fair enough. They can enjoy it without spouting incredibly poor jokes though can't they? :laugh:

 

[Moriouce]

Why do orks speak gothic? I see no use in this. They would be better off without being able yo communicate with other spiecis.

 

[hailene]

Why do orks speak gothic? I see no use in this. They would be better off without being able yo communicate with other spiecis.

Almost none of them do. It's only the very rare Ork that can speak Gothic with any sort of fluency.

 

[Moriouce]

Almost none of them do. It's only the very rare Ork that can speak Gothic with any sort of fluency.

I know it is rare, but no ork should. Better to let them gruff and bark, only for themselves to understand.

 

[Angel of Blood]

There was a story in perhaps one of the Index Astartes or White Dwarfs that described how the fight between Aurellian and Angron went down, and it was a pretty awesome read, especially the reactions before and after by Grimnar. Granted it might now be somewhat retconned as it mentions nothing of the Blade or anyone breaking it, but Aurellian still had a hell of a lot to do to banish Angron.

 

[Over Two Meters Tall!]

I've always been annoyed with the concept of the Primarchs, following the Heresy (+ Scouring), dropping out of the 40K storyline. There's really only two among all the loyalist Primarchs that both survive the Heresy itself and have any real Imperial political ability on their own, Guilliman and Dorn. So why not let several have a role and the addition that makes to the overall storyline.

I also get annoyed with the concept of a frozen or regressive technological environment, especially every time an author pulls out another bit of nigh-magical tech in the interest of advancing the story line. Reading some of the Mechanicum-related fluff clearly shows that Adepts and Forges are constantly developing or even recovering tech.

 

[Angel of Lies]

One thing that has annoyed me was the technological stagnation. Not so much that technology has stagnated but rather how it is depicted. In the first few books I read of 40k, I got the impression that every piece of technology was priceless. Most of it was unknowable or insanely hard to understand that the Imperium had lost the ability to make them.

Then I watched has dozens of these pieces of equipment (Battleships, Terminator Armor, Titans, ect, ect) get destroyed or needlessly pissed into the wind during conflict. To me that just made absolutely no sense. Cause every battle in the 100,000 wars the Imperium is fighting at any one time should have long ago left it a dried, primitive, husk.

It also left me with the question of wtf are the Forge Worlds even making? All the badass technology that keeps the Imperium afloat are lost now ... so wtf are they making, a shit ton of lasguns and frag grenades?

 

[Reaper45]

One thing that has annoyed me was the technological stagnation. Not so much that technology has stagnated but rather how it is depicted. In the first few books I read of 40k, I got the impression that every piece of technology was priceless. Most of it was unknowable or insanely hard to understand that the Imperium had lost the ability to make them.

Then I watched has dozens of these pieces of equipment (Battleships, Terminator Armor, Titans, ect, ect) get destroyed or needlessly pissed into the wind during conflict. To me that just made absolutely no sense. Cause every battle in the 100,000 wars the Imperium is fighting at any one time should have long ago left it a dried, primitive, husk.

It also left me with the question of wtf are the Forge Worlds even making? All the badass technology that keeps the Imperium afloat are lost now ... so wtf are they making, a shit ton of lasguns and frag grenades?

It's called the worf effect. You want to prove an enemy is dangerous have to obliterate a battleship, battle barge, curb stomp an astartes chapter or IG regiment. It's one of those sci fi tropes that everyone uses but no one really realizes.

In my head canon, the ability to make certain tech's isn't completely lost, certain first founding chapters can replace their terminator armor and other pieces, and they supply other chapters with them. Aside from the few unique items they want to keep.

As for battleships and stuff I like to think that they still produce battleships but what made the old ones valuable is not replaceable.

 

[hailene]

That's the thing, rather than as some unified whole, the Imperium's technology are sealed more as islands.

Ryza, for example, has a mastery of plasma technology probably not matched outside of Mars itself (at least in the IoM). It won't share it's understanding with forge world X, so forge world X and its surrounding sectors have to make due without the incredibly advanced plasma weaponry the worlds near Ryza enjoy.

Repeat this across the entire Imperium of Man.

 

[Reaper45]

That's the thing, rather than as some unified whole, the Imperium's technology are sealed more as islands.

Ryza, for example, has a mastery of plasma technology probably not matched outside of Mars itself (at least in the IoM). It won't share it's understanding with forge world X, so forge world X and its surrounding sectors have to make due without the incredibly advanced plasma weaponry the worlds near Ryza enjoy.

Repeat this across the entire Imperium of Man.

Just goes the show the imperium isn't a unified front, Thanks Gulliman.

 

[Brobaddon]

Source?

We have no idea how the rest of the fight panned out.

It could have been Captain Taremar that won most of that fight. Or the weapons of Enceldaus and Galeo that speared Angron's wrists. Or the 80+ other Grey Knights living at the moment.

Or, most likely of all, a more even contribution of everyone involved.

Angron was slaying 5 Grey Knight Terminators at the same time with his blade. A loss of a powerful demonic weapon has turned back the tide in Grey Knight's favour, regardless of how the rest of the fight played out, that was made clear thanks to Hyperion's intervention. Had not that happened, god knows if any of the Grey Knights would have survived.

You're arguing semantics here.

Hyperion, as I said before, had incredible amounts of psychic power. Combined with his Reflective Psychic...surrounded and connected to 100 of some of the most powerful psychic warriors the Imperium could muster...

He was said to be a very talented psyker, not to have incredible amounts of psychic power. Even if he did, he wasn't exactly a senior librarian, or chief libranian.

Besides, it was him who stopped Angron's blade. Considering how Khorne protects his minions against psychic stuff, I found it far fetched for Angron to have such troubles with a lowly Grey Knight like Hyperion.

I'm personally of the opinion that if Angron hadn't ascended, the Grey Knights would have lost. It was his daemonic nature that sealed his doom. A rock, paper, scissors sort of issue.

I agree. I don't have issues with him losing to Grey Knights, but I have issues with how it was done.

And you're using psychic feats as a ruler ? Wouldn't, you know, the breaker of the Black Blade rank higher than those feats?

Perhaps? But that's my issue all along. Hyperion was never presented to be an immensly powerful psyker, not at least in leagues with the guys that I mentioned. I can agree that he was damn formidable, but there's a whole league above that category.

If so, then by our own measuring system, then Hyperion would be a stronger psyker than those you listed.

And if the breaking of the Black Blade is NOT as impressive of feats as you listed, then Hyperion is in fact weaker than those Librarians...and his feat would surely be more believable for you?

You're just arguing now for the sake of arguing aren't you? xD