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Discussion Starter #1
Let me say it first and clearly; I'm not talking about the Grey Knights. I want to talk about Inquisitors.

I finished The Death of Antagonis and there was some...odd lines from the author. Thunderhawks having shields. How gellar fields are only needed to protect its passengers the moment when transitioning into the Warp...

But the biggest one that struck was at the start of the book. An Inquistior from the Ordo Malleus is shocked that a Space Marine had even heard of the Ordo Malleus. According to him, only the Grey Knights and (I assume) other Inquisitors should know about the Ordo Malleus.

When I first read that line, I chalked it up as a goof. Even the experienced authors do it sometime, but the new guys tend to be prone to make mistakes like these. (Although I totally respect him for using the Sus-an Membrane. Finally!) Then I got to thinking...have we ever seen a person outside the Inquisition know about the existence of the Ordo Malleus?

I couldn't think of anyone off the top of my head. It doesn't help that no one outside the Ordos really knows anything specific about the Inquisition. Surely Space Marines would be in the know, right?

I know Ciaphas Cain is aware that there are three branches of the Inquisition (I don't recall which book he mentions that). Nor do I recall whether he knew what which one did...though he's sorta informally related to the Inquisition through Inquisitor Amberly Vail, so I don't know if he counts as an outsider.

I think the Space Wolves in The Emperor's Gift may have recognized the Ordo Malleus for what they were...but I couldn't find any explicit evidence in brief review of the book.

So is the goof not a goof? Is it a new piece of fluff to be taken into the whole?
 

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I think the Imperium as a whole is generally aware of the existence of the Inquisition but knows nothing more than that Inquisitors have complete authority over everyone everywhere. Certainly other figures of Authority like planetary Governors and Imperial Guard Officers are aware of Inquisitors and the absolute sway they have, as are members of the Ecclesiarchy and the senior members of the Adeptus Sororitas.

What rank was the Space Marine in question? Because again, Captains and other important figureheads are certainly aware of Inquisitors, but as for the battle brothers I suppose it would depend on the educational doctrines of each chapter as to how aware their brothers are.

Also, that gellar shield point is definitely bs and I'm pretty sure thunderhawks have no form of shields so you were well right to see that as odd. :laugh:
 

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Jac "Baneblade" O'Bite
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Logan Grimnar would certainly know about them due to the Purge of Armageddon.

I call bullshit personally. Yes they are probably the most sercretive of all the Ordos but those who know about the =I= will know about them, maybe not everybody but not to the level which that author is making out. I'm pretty sure Gaunt has come across one as well.

That geller field mistake is a huge one. Like massive.

EDIT: Yeah Gaunt most certainly has. Heldane, that bastard.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I think the Imperium as a whole is generally aware of the existence of the Inquisition but knows nothing more than that Inquisitors have complete authority over everyone everywhere.
I know the Inqusition is secretive...but to have a major Ordo not even supposed to be known to anyone? I'll quote the book to demonstrate how absolute he believes the secrecy of the Ordos is.

"Lettinger [the Inquistor] started. Only the Grey Knights were supposed to know that there was such a thing as the Ordo Malleus."

That I would assume that planetary governors, Lord Generals, the Mechanicus Fabricator-general, and (I suppose) even the Hive Lords of Terra are supposed to be out of the loop.

What rank was the Space Marine in question?
A Captain.

Because again, Captains and other important figureheads are certainly aware of Inquisitors,
The Inquisitor knew he was a Captain, but was still extremely shocked that the Captain was aware of his Ordos.

Yeah Gaunt most certainly has. Heldane, that bastard.
I haven't read First and Only in years, but I remember Gaunt knowing Heldane was an Inquisitor. Did he know he was from the Ordos Malleus, though? Did anyone know his Ordos?

I have an electronic copy as well, and a ctrl+F didn't find the word Ordos or Malleus. And rosset only came up with a Hyrkan rosset.
 

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Jac "Baneblade" O'Bite
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I haven't read First and Only in years, but I remember Gaunt knowing Heldane was an Inquisitor. Did he know he was from the Ordos Malleus, though? Did anyone know his Ordos?

I have an electronic copy as well, and a ctrl+F didn't find the word Ordos or Malleus. And rosset only came up with a Hyrkan rosset.
I don't know if its mentioned in First and Only. I'm simply going off what the internet says, I think it's mentioned in Mallus where Heldane makes his first chronological appearance.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I don't know if its mentioned in First and Only. I'm simply going off what the internet says, I think it's mentioned in Mallus where Heldane makes his first chronological appearance.
In Malleus, he's introduced to Inquisitors and their retinue.

Is it known to anyone outside the Ordos that the Ordo Malleus exists?

The closest I've been able to find is in The Emperor's Gift where 30 odd Inquistiors (of which at least 2 of them are Malleus) give their introductions to Grimnar's Wolfguard. I don't think this example really counts, since Grimnar probably already told them about the Ordos and the Inquisitors probably didn't care too much since the Wolves were (supposedly) going to be mind-wiped.
 

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The existence of the Inquisition itself is an open secret. If people didn't know anything about them or their authority the Inquisitors wouldn't get very far. Knowing that there are different Ordos however, and what those Ordos do is another matter entirely.

I would think that is restricted, or at least uncommon, knowledge. Space Marines of a certain rank would likely know the difference, as would perhaps some Imperial Guard commanders but it's defiantly not common knowledge.

Remember that daemons themselves don't officially exist and neither does the warp or chaos as we (the omniscient reader) understand it. So if daemons don't exist then daemon hunters won't either right?
 

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I think in most cases an inquisitor from the order of the hammer would simply be introduced socially as 'an inquisitor'.

Generally speaking people in the imperium have no clue about chaos, the warp, or daemons consequently they wouldn't know about the daemon-hunting military arm of the inquisition. Whether space marines, those commanders, or more senior members of planetary governments would know probably depends on needs, experience, and exposure.
 

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Bane of Empires
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Just another inconsistency. The same applies to knowledge of Chaos and of the Horus Heresy, and even the Grey Knights. Some codicies and books say outright that no one is aware of the Horus Heresy, yet others have low-life humans referring to such events.

In my view, Rems is right:

The existence of the Inquisition itself is an open secret. If people didn't know anything about them or their authority the Inquisitors wouldn't get very far. Knowing that there are different Ordos however, and what those Ordos do is another matter entirely.
Unless the Inquisition travels everywhere with the strength to back-up or enforce its demands, then the Astartes and others in positions of authority who treat with Inquisitors have to at least be aware of the Inquisition and their authority. Otherwise there would inevitably be a lot more conflict between them and other Imperial organisations.

Classifying such things as "open secrets" suits me. Obviously a lot of people are aware of the Inquisition and have had dealings with them. Similarly a lot of people are aware of the existence of Chaos Space Marines and daemons, yet officially their existence is probably denied. However, "Abaddon the Despoiler" is even said to be a well known name throughout the Imperium. Information can spread quickly, though it probably often devolves into rumour, myth and legend. But the Imperium is a big place, on some worlds they believe the existence of aliens to only be a myth. Let alone Chaos, the God-Emperor and the Adeptus Astartes.
 

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It may even be as simple as this Inquisitor hasn't had many dealings with Astartes before, and while the official line may be that few know of the branches of the Inquisition, many Astartes chapters are fully aware (or at least their command structure is) - he just doesn't know about it.

:dunno:
 

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To be fair any chapter thats had any dealings with particular ordos the chapter would remember (all chapters have their own ways of remembering). For example if the Exorsists didnt know about the ordo malleus their purpose would be moot. As for everything else information travels at next to no speed in the imperium except for the basics so all the ordos mix into just inquisitors. The "open secret" is about the limit of information.
 

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To be fair any chapter thats had any dealings with particular ordos the chapter would remember (all chapters have their own ways of remembering). For example if the Exorsists didnt know about the ordo malleus their purpose would be moot. As for everything else information travels at next to no speed in the imperium except for the basics so all the ordos mix into just inquisitors. The "open secret" is about the limit of information.
Not so fast. Some times the interaction with the =][= can be forgotten due to ye oll mind wipe. Just because you have gene seed dose not guarantee that one will be deemed worthy of holding onto the secretest of The Emperors Holy Inquisition. Now is it possible that any random Captain might know to much about the Ordo Mallues? Sure. Likely? Hell no. It is the most secretive of the three major Ordos, and the oldest. As i understand knowledge of the Malleus is not even common inside the =][=. Out side it would be rare to know that there were even divisions called Ordos in the =][=. Possessing it would be a great way to get yourself killed. Now maybe some chapter has detailed knowledge about them and has been able to avoid the mind wipe/ destruction others have experienced due to circumstances but i don't think we should think this is the new norm. Its a large universe... this is not as bad as.... Female Astartes or... a chapter claiming to be sons of Russ.
 

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As I recall that particular inquisitor was an arrogant asshole.

Even by inquisitors standards so there's a very likely chance that he was basically the equivalent of The Paramilitary Poser (Look it up yourself) but with the authority of the inquisition. Yikes.

Secondly whose to say thunderhawks don't have shields. It is the biggest gunship they have.

Finally could you provide a page number about the geller field I don't remember that part.
 

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Not so fast. Some times the interaction with the =][= can be forgotten due to ye oll mind wipe. Just because you have gene seed dose not guarantee that one will be deemed worthy of holding onto the secretest of The Emperors Holy Inquisition.
Particularly given the whole Chaos Space Marines thing
 

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Well as for divisions Ventris knew there was the ordos xeno as many ultramarines serve in the deathwatch. And in dawn of war xenos and hereticus are known about. So divisions carnt be that secretive. Space marines after all are the main response to any big nasty threats to the imperium.

But yes i suppose mind wiping is a common thing but among space marines? Doubtful, as whilst the grey knights are the specialists in dealing with daemons the response times will be variable so therefore space marines require to know (at least limited) knowledge of what there up against. Even if they dont know the nitty gritty i imagine they know which inquisitor ordo they talk to.

And they grey knights themselves are supposed to be hush hush we dont exist by in one of the grey knights books (second one i think) a random sister of battle knows about them.

I think to the average imperium citizen they wouldnt have a clue about the different ordos but the marines they will know more but not fully.
 

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Well, I think that the author may have had his fluff a little mixed up. The definitive fluff on inquisitors is still from Dan Abnett's Ravenor and Eisenhorn series, where we see Inquisitors from all three Ordos interacting with each other fully aware of their backgrounds - but the denizens of the Imperium they interact with don't seem to know what the difference between them is.

However, related to the OP, the original second edition era inquisitor fluff came from the 'Draco' series, where the Inquisition is is likened to three orders set one within the other -Xenos being the face of the inquisition and the one that acolytes are initiated into, Hereticus being the order that polices them as well as cult activity, and finally Malleus being the innermost circle of the inquisition.

Totally different fluff, and Draco's companions include a squat, if that's any indication of how out of date that concept of the inquisition is.

Mind you, I haven't read through the new grey knight codex yet (I'll get there one day) so I couldn't say for sure if Dan Abnett is still canon.
 

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don't the Grey Knights get mind swiped? thought i read that in one of the Grey Knights novels....if they do that hardly sounds like the Malleus trust even the purest of Astartes
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Finally could you provide a page number about the geller field I don't remember that part.
Well as for divisions Ventris knew there was the ordos xeno as many ultramarines serve in the deathwatch. And in dawn of war xenos and hereticus are known about. So divisions carnt be that secretive. Space marines after all are the main response to any big nasty threats to the imperium.
The other Ordos may be known to those who needs to know, but the crux of my OP was whether or not the Ordo Malleus was known outside the Inquisition and GK. I was hoping someone could provide a source with someone outside the Ordos knowing of the Malleus's existence.

ut yes i suppose mind wiping is a common thing but among space marines? Doubtful, as whilst the grey knights are the specialists in dealing with daemons the response times will be variable so therefore space marines require to know (at least limited) knowledge of what there up against.
The new fluff has a mandatory mind-wipe for all Space Marines that see or learn about the Grey Knights (post battle, of course). Only Chapter Masters are supposed to even know about the existence of the GK Chapter.

Doubtful, as whilst the grey knights are the specialists in dealing with daemons the response times will be variable so therefore space marines require to know (at least limited) knowledge of what there up against.
The GKs are of course exempted from the mind-wipe. It's all the other Chapters that receive that treatment.

And they grey knights themselves are supposed to be hush hush we dont exist by in one of the grey knights books (second one i think) a random sister of battle knows about them.
The second book came out in 2006 (Dark Adeptus. This is before the canonization of mind-wiping and super-secrecy.

The definitive fluff on inquisitors is still from Dan Abnett's Ravenor and Eisenhorn series, where we see Inquisitors from all three Ordos interacting with each other fully aware of their backgrounds
I think the Ordos ought to be aware of themselves. I was wondering if anyone outside the GKs and the Inquisition would know about the Ordo Malleus.

don't the Grey Knights get mind swiped?
They shouldn't normally, no.
 

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I think you missed my point.....
If its mandatory for other chapters to be mind wiped then wouldnt that just be like blunting a sword after its used knowing full well a battle is coming? I mean if something dreadful happens I can envision a mind wipe. But a knowledge of the enemy is key (well not fully in 40k) but a very vauge knowledge (sort of semi-mind wipe) would be more viable so the marines dont forget how to efficiently kill the daemon.

If its new fluff them it seems relativity stupid. I mean marines may follow orders and under the malleus remit and get mind scrubbed (baring the space wolves those rouge pups) but that just seems...... wasteful.

Well we know marines know about daemons because they face them so regularly so even if they dont know about the grey knights (which lets be honest are supposed to be the ultimate final solution) the probably know about the ordos.

As for people knowing about the ordo malleus on the first page of the first story in Architect of Fate an inquisitor use the name ordo malleus which implies that it has some power on its own and thus people need to know for it to have such sway. Baring that the title inquisitor has power but why use the ordo if this is the case....
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Their minds aren't entirely destroyed. Only the parts pertaining to the specific battle and the existence of the GKs.

When the GKs are called, it isn't some random daemon that a cultist managed to summon by chance. It's something Big (capital required).

Something like that is too much even for a Space Marine to handle. Hence the mind-wipe.
 
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