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It's Only Logical
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Getting back into 40k with 7th edition releasing. I've always been a casual player. However what I seem to see more and more are the arguments between casual and competitive players. I understand there are 2 very different polar opposite view points to the huge debate at the moment when it comes to what's wrong with 40k. But I've never had a chance to play in these large competitive tournaments. I kinda want to try it out! Maybe travel to a big tournament like adepticon!

What's the most competitive army?

Is there a clear cut winner? I know it's hard to judge as the new edition JUST released. But what were the most competitive lists? Will they have changed with 7th?
 

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Rattlehead
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I believe the list of choice that was flying around at the end of 6th was Eldar - 3-man units of Jetbikes to score Objectives on the last turn, a bunch of Wave Serpents with Guardians or Aspect Warriors of some kind, Warp Spiders, and a pair of Wraithknights. I never found it too troublesome, albeit in a slightly weakened form (only one Wraithknight, and some Wraithguard in Wave Serpents to compensate plus a Fire Prism), but that was the business. The other one was some Tau list of a Commander with a bunch of items so he gave out special rules like candy, some token Fire Warriors, then Riptides and Broadsides with some Pathfinders to give Markerlights. Also making appearances was Screamerstar (a bunch of Screamers with Forewarning and Grimoire), and White Scars (SM Bikes with Grav Guns).

Personally, I never found them to be ultra-good, but they were winning tournaments.
 

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With 7th just out it is hard to tell which is the most competitive. Right at this moment people are using the Daemon summoning list but I think this will probably be quickly countered. CSM helldrake spam is popular, necrons are also popular. My advice would be to find an army you like and build it as competitive as you can.
 

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Rattlehead
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With 7th just out it is hard to tell which is the most competitive. Right at this moment people are using the Daemon summoning list but I think this will probably be quickly countered. CSM helldrake spam is popular, necrons are also popular. My advice would be to find an army you like and build it as competitive as you can.
I think at the moment people are *talking* about using a Daemon Summoning list. I don't know anyone who owns 100+ Lesser Daemons yet.
 

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I think at the moment people are *talking* about using a Daemon Summoning list. I don't know anyone who owns 100+ Lesser Daemons yet.
I know several, it is quite easy to achieve. I expect to see this from the same players that like the Tyranid Tervigon(sp?)/gaunt spam.

The new allies options make some very handy combos legal (Battle Forged) now. My own armies will almost certainly feature Necrons and Imperial Knights - Necron flyers, shooting and durability have always been hampered by short range and a general dislike for CC, something that IK excel at. 3 Monoliths and 3 Imperial Knights in a 2k game could be quite fun...
 

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I think at the moment people are *talking* about using a Daemon Summoning list. I don't know anyone who owns 100+ Lesser Daemons yet.

I know three that have over 100+ lesser daemons. I still think it will be a list that will be more annoying than good.
 

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Rattlehead
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I know three that have over 100+ lesser daemons. I still think it will be a list that will be more annoying than good.
That's my opinion also - killing a bunch of T3 guys with 4+ cover/5+ invuln saves is so easy it's not even funny. Perils is reasonably common even with Daemons, which is commonly overlooked. You can plonk a gorillion Pink Horrors on the field, but they don't actually do anything other than sit there and look weird.
 

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People could take 120 Horrors before. It was bad then, it's bad now.

Don't worry about "most competitive" armies, most books have a viable build or two now, except possibly BA. Play whatever you like.
 

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In the case of this new horror summoning build people are talking about they might be forgetting the practical limitations- time limits. I believe some people tried out tervigon spam lists in 5th, which looked great on paper, but found they were spending so much time moving models it just didn't work in a timed game.

Personally when I look at tournament results I'm usually more impressed by the guys that place highly with a weaker codex than the people who take the very top spots with the best builds. What's the better story- the premier league team with the billionaire owner who pay astronomical salaries and go on the win the league, or the underdogs with the weaker squad and no spending power who have a great season, shock everyone and finish 4th or 5th?
 

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So be it.
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People could take 120 Horrors before. It was bad then, it's bad now.

Don't worry about "most competitive" armies, most books have a viable build or two now, except possibly BA. Play whatever you like.
Well, they gave us our fast tanks back so I will keep plugging away I guess.
 

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Not to say that you can't win games, just that I don't think the codex has the tools to win tournaments. Nerfs to melee directly hurt our Troop/Elites choices, and so long as Intercepting pie plates of S8 AP3 death are a thing from Tau then Assault Marines are a waste of space apart from as a tax to unlock Fast Razorbacks.

BA as a whole are too expensive to play the numbers game, and not tough enough to win through survival as well as being less mobile than the three main armies, despite their fast transports.
 

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Blood Angels are terrible now. But they've got an update due after orks anyway. The only thing they have going for them is Dante + 2 Sang Guard units as allies. Outside of that... Nope.

Personally when I look at tournament results I'm usually more impressed by the guys that place highly with a weaker codex than the people who take the very top spots with the best builds. What's the better story- the premier league team with the billionaire owner who pay astronomical salaries and go on the win the league, or the underdogs with the weaker squad and no spending power who have a great season, shock everyone and finish 4th or 5th?
Whoa whoa whoa, Liverpool finished 2nd, cheers.



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Why do you think melee has been nerfed? If anything, in the ten or so games of 7th I've played, shooting has been dialled back and many games have been won in the assault phase.
Well not much has changed from 6th and that was bad enough. Things have got a little better now you can use jump packs in movement and assault but you can still routinely fail 5 inch charges through cover, and melta doesn't cut it against riptide or knights. Mêlée is useful, but not with mediocre troops choices.
 

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Rattlehead
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Well not much has changed from 6th and that was bad enough. Things have got a little better now you can use jump packs in movement and assault but you can still routinely fail 5 inch charges through cover, and melta doesn't cut it against riptide or knights. Mêlée is useful, but not with mediocre troops choices.
Fair enough. My assault for Dark Angels consists almost entirely of Deathwing, either of the Hammer and Shield variety or Knights - I haven't much experience with Power-Armoured assault units unless I'm charging the three or four dudes left in a unit with Grey Knights which is just mop-up. My other army is Orks, who are just as strong as Assault Marines on the charge but with the benefit of a Str9 PK Nob and a whole bunch more dudes in the combat.
 

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I predict when the new DE codex comes along and Raiders get the same allotment of increased transport capacity for independent characters as all other new codices have, 5-man Wraithblade squads in Raiders accompanied by an Archon for grenades is going to be cheesy. (Or a dirt cheap Succubus if they get access to the Phantasm Grenade Launcher)

Something like:

DE HQ:

Archon or succubus w/ PGL
3 Haemonculi

DE troops:

3 wracks
3 wracks, raider (raider given to Wraithblades)
3 wracks, raider (raider given to Wraithblades)
Splinter Kabalites in raider
5 Wyches, HWG, in venom
5 Wyches, HWG, in venom

DE Elite:

4 Blasterborn in venom
4 Blasterborn in venom

DE Fast attack:

3 Reavers
3 Reavers
3 Reavers / Razorwing if it becomes FA like it should

DE Heavy support:

Talos to use webway portal

Eldar HQ:

Spiritseer

Eldar Troops:

5 Wraithblades
5 Wraithblades

Eldar Elites:
10 Wraithguard

Eldar fast attack:
Crimson Hunter

Eldar Heavy Support
3 War walkers

To me that seems like a potent list to nail objectives hard. Should be easy to fit into 1750 points as well with wiggle room.
 

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Are Raiders dedicated transports?

I predict when the new DE codex comes along and Raiders get the same allotment of increased transport capacity for independent characters as all other new codices have, 5-man Wraithblade squads in Raiders accompanied by an Archon for grenades is going to be cheesy. (Or a dirt cheap Succubus if they get access to the Phantasm Grenade Launcher)

Something like:

DE HQ:

Archon or succubus w/ PGL
3 Haemonculi

DE troops:

3 wracks
3 wracks, raider (raider given to Wraithblades)
3 wracks, raider (raider given to Wraithblades)
Splinter Kabalites in raider
5 Wyches, HWG, in venom
5 Wyches, HWG, in venom

DE Elite:

4 Blasterborn in venom
4 Blasterborn in venom

DE Fast attack:

3 Reavers
3 Reavers
3 Reavers / Razorwing if it becomes FA like it should

DE Heavy support:

Talos to use webway portal

Eldar HQ:

Spiritseer

Eldar Troops:

5 Wraithblades
5 Wraithblades

Eldar Elites:
10 Wraithguard

Eldar fast attack:
Crimson Hunter

Eldar Heavy Support
3 War walkers

To me that seems like a potent list to nail objectives hard. Should be easy to fit into 1750 points as well with wiggle room.
 
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