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Pally-HO!!!!
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i was watching the matrix (the first one), and i was presented with a philosophical dilemma; what really is REAL? i decided to do research on the subject, and came up with all kinds of crazy stuff; one theory states that negative and positive are the same, that real and not real are both one; another theory states that i exist unless i think i exist...but that wouldn't matter unless i really existed! would it?
in the matrix, the modern day is a simulated reality, and a post apocalyptic wasteland is the real world...nobody really knows the truth, and those that do would be instantly branded lunatics if they tried to convince the general population of the truth.
so my question is thus; if reality is really real, how do we know?
 

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If what you are asking is "is this all a simulation" then the evidence is that it is not.
You see in order to simulate something you must store it as data, the closer the simulation the more data is required. To run this simulation you must store this data. If you wanted the simulation to be perfect you would have to simulate every particle. Now to simulate every atom you must store at least 5 bits of data for each particle (spin, charge, speed, position, direction of movement and the last three cannot all be known at the same time accurately). To store this data you need an way of storing it, the smallest way you know you can do this is in the spin of an electron. Now you'll need 5 times as many electrons in the simulator as particles in the simulation to do this. This means that the universe that is creating the simulation must be at least 5 times more massive than this one, and that is just the simulation. This is considered most unlikely be those physicists who think about these things (according to New Scientist)
 

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Porn King!!!
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Bacteria don't think, but they are, or am.
Gotcha there King lol.

Reality is how you define it for yourself. Those with insanity may view reality differently than the rest of us do but even though it is not a true vision of reality as the rest of us know it, it is all too often real enough to them. It is all a matter of perspective.
 

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Gotcha there King lol.

Reality is how you define it for yourself. Those with insanity may view reality differently than the rest of us do but even though it is not a true vision of reality as the rest of us know it, it is all too often real enough to them. It is all a matter of perspective.
a bacteria merely exists in our world
 

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*sigh* Ahhh... philosophical debate. There's not much that I ... well... the word isn't enjoy, or hate. I am filled with loathing for some of the asinine thoughts I have heard uttered from the mouths of people I know, yet for some reason I can't help but argue about it instead of just saying, "That is utterly idiotic, and I find it repugnant that you would assault my ears with such tripe."

And... in that vein... look at yourself as a symbiotic being. You have your brain or mind, and then you have your body, with little nervy tendrils snaking throughout in order to get information. Now your view of the world; sight, smell, taste, sense of direction, etc are all interpreted from the various sensory organs of the body by the brain. Your perception of what's around is, in a very real way, a simulation created by the brain, in the brain and for the brain.

Oh, and in terms of having to have all the information stored, not so. There are ways to cheat that. Algorithms in programming do a wonderful job of it. Hell... an MP3 with a high enough sample rate is indistinguishable from live music. It doesn't change the fact that the MP3 is an imperfect representation of the actual sound.

My advice on the whole thing? Leave philosophy to those who have managed to con their way out of having real jobs and get paid by the government to think their deep thoughts in our colleges and universities. Unless, of course, you want to con the government, too. :biggrin:

Edit: Oh! I almost forgot. Hippies also get to wax philosophical, they just don't have to pretend that any intelligence drives what they're saying.
 

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The Traveler
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What if we percive something to be real, that isn't? Would that simply not exist, instead be a product of an imagined reality? Or a thought? Do thoughts exist, as they themselves are created by people who know simply that they think they exist? Frankly, if the arguement is "I think, therefore I am," is the subject of Abortion groundless? Also, vegetables don't think, and we wage war over pulling the plug. Do they exist?

Can reality even be imagined? It's an oxymoron. Imagined Reality. Therefore, anything that is imagined does not exist, even though it may in the future. If we follow this, anything that is thought up is not real, at least until things combine to make it a reality. But how would an imagination become reality if Imagined Reality cannot exist?

Gah! It's making my brain hurt.
-Dirge
 

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well, see, it goes like this....

the answer to the only question that matters is 42. that's all we really need to know. you see, it's the ultimate question of life, the universe and everything...so really, nothing else matters.

besides, if we actually found out what the universe is and what it's for, well, it'd blow up and be replaced with something infinitely more complex. this has probably already happened.....

oh, and btw, all of this is the reason for the '42' in loyalist42....
 

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Porn King!!!
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a bacteria merely exists in our world
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They exist, therefore they are. Being sentient is not a requisite of being real :wink:

the answer to the only question that matters is 42. that's all we really need to know. you see, it's the ultimate question of life, the universe and everything...so really, nothing else matters.
Betcha some hitchhiker told you that...
 

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Faith is the answer. Otherwise, no matter whether or not we are 'real', there still is no reason behind our assumed existence. Agree or disagree, it matters little to me, as I do understand the 'why' so any other questions are inconsequential.

The topics brought up in The Matrix are pretty cool, but only that. In order to learn the truth about existance, we must first understand that we are flawed and are incapable of understanding ALL the truth that is there to see. We must take many such things on Faith alone. There is no other way.
 

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Understanding the truth is not a prerequisite to seeing it. Also, truth is subjective - what is true for one person may not be true for another. Remember back to a time when you gained some insight into a previously clouded issue. Notice how the truth changed for you?
 

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Now we are all getting philosophical because somebody watched Keanu Reeves dodge bullets? :grin:

We my thoughts on reality is; its really what you make it out to be, there is no wrong or right answer to this question because its unanswerable, because many different people perceive reality differently, just like religions or the meaning of life, ect. you can ask this question many times but you are nearly guaranteed to have a different answer every time.

but yet again, i could be talking crap anyhow.:fuck:
 

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Oh, and in terms of having to have all the information stored, not so. There are ways to cheat that. Algorithms in programming do a wonderful job of it. Hell... an MP3 with a high enough sample rate is indistinguishable from live music. It doesn't change the fact that the MP3 is an imperfect representation of the actual sound.
As you say an MP3 is an imperfect representation of the sound. It is a recording of a sound, not a simulation of an orchestra.

To have a perfect simulation you must have all the data stored. Using any form of algorithm would reduce the fidelity of the simulation.
Although to simulate the world in the matrix it would require considerably less data as you are just simulating the world, but the amount of data required still makes the likelihood very low.

There are other ways to get round this. You could give everybody the same very limited simulation, you can reduce the accuracy of the simulation, you could limit the input and allow the brain to fill in the gaps (a controlled hallucination) and so on.

IMO the matrix is bit like the lord of the rings... If your a 14 year old boy and it does not make you go "woo, that's, like, deep and stuff" then there is something wrong with you. If you are a grown man and it makes you go "woo, that's, like, deep and stuff" then there is something wrong with you.
 

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There are other ways to get round this. You could give everybody the same very limited simulation, you can reduce the accuracy of the simulation, you could limit the input and allow the brain to fill in the gaps (a controlled hallucination) and so on.
Actually, one of my favorites that gets used a fair amount in video games that I should have thought to mention is summed up by "It's only there if someone is looking." For example, in games that have highly detailed faces will often leave a stripped down version in place of the detailed view to save a few clock cycles when the camera cannot 'see' the face.
 

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The "only there if you look at it" is fine for a game but not for a perfect simulation. Basically you still need to track every thing in the game, but you only need a very small amount of data to do this. Take Doom for instance, you have an Imp. You need to know its X position (2 bytes) and Y position (2 bytes) (not z, doom was essentially flat), its health 2(bytes), facing (1 byte) and type (Its an Imp, lets say this is 2 bytes as well). This is 9 bytes of information.

You also need to know the same info about the player, so that's another 9 bytes.

So If I am facing away from the Imp then I can "Perfectly" describe my Doom universe with 18 bytes of data. If I look at the imp I need to know what it looks like, so I load one of 8 1KB sprites. So now to "perfectly" describe my Doom universe I need 1042 bytes. Essentially the render engine of Doom has added in the information that I was previously unaware of. I was tracking two particles.

When I looked at the Imp I had to add in a vast amount of data. That data was held by the render engine which has to hold 8Kb of data for the Imp (1Kb for each sprite) for when I need it.(Although it only needs to store 8kb, no matter how many Imps I have)

What I'm trying to say is that the data has to be stored somewhere. The the case of the "perfect" simulation all the data is held in the simulation, there is no need for a "render engine" as the rules that underpin the simulation dictate what I can see (or indeed that I can see) and therefore everything needs to be known to know what I can see.

More rambling...

If I donate to Heresy.net can I get a custom title of "Random Rambler"
 

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The point of the movie seems to be missed amongst the special effects.
It was meant to show us that the world we think we live in doesn't exist. We are told we are free and we believe it because we grow up thinking the way we live is what being free means. Our parents and grandparents had more freedom but we have no way of realizing what was lost because we never had it.

For example, how many of you Americans and Canadians believe that having to pay tax on your labor (income) is law? http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=5470
The truth is that 'Canada' doesn't exist and never did.
The moral of "The Matrix" is that you actually are living in an illusion that only works because you choose to believe it exists.
 
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