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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Ive just started reading fallen angels again for the second time and came across something which should prove alot towards the lion being loyal.

Alot of people seem to think it was mostly terrans who where sent back to caliban but in fact its mostly calibanites who are sent back and the lion surrounds himself with terrans. Page reference 15 it had escaped no one that virtually all of the astartes being sent home were from caliban rather than terra.. Now if the lion was planning on turning traitor and was purging his legion of those who would not follow him then why surround himself with terrans who would be more likely to be loyal to the emperor.

Now heres another point which is even more obvious. its actually decades before the heresy when the lion sends them back to caliban so how would he be purging the legion or even thinking about turning traitor when its decades before the heresy even starts. Page Reference 35 Luther and the rest seemed to have been entirely banished from the primarchs mind and as the years lengthened into decades rhunours and speculation had begun to circulate.
these were the thoughts of chaplain Nemiel on the embarkation deck.

The first chapter is all about luther being sent home to caliban and it says on the top of the page its the 147th year of the great crusade.
the next chapter which is up to date states at the top of the page that it is now the 200th year of the great crusade just when the lion finds out about the heresy.
53 years have past since luther was sent home befors the heresy. Enough said i think.

Thoughts please.
 

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Bane of Empires
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It won't be enough to convince those people who cling to the theory that the Lion was a fence-sitter im afraid...

I could pick apart both those points right now, so it won't do much good convincing the people who are convinced the Lion was some form of traitor or fence-sitter. :p

But notable finds none-the-less. :)
 

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If you've read Angels of Darkness; the issue of terran vs Calibanite Dark Angels is first raised there.

The problem I have is that neither of the Dark Angels books characterise the Lion well or offer any real insight into his reasoning... he pretty much just comes across as a bit of a douche.

If I read into the book and effectively run with some subtle hints and themes [that also play out accross the HH series.]

Caliban is tainted to its core by chaos. The knights of the world hunt chaos beasts and collect lore on them [also in some cases collect the beasts themselves.] There entire feudal system is intertwined with chaos you might say.

Some calibanites are uneasy with the Imperium moving in and altering and harvesting their planet [unaware? of its chaosy core.]

The primarchs are unaware of Chaos [a running theme in the HH, the emperor doesn't tell them and basically keeps asking them to ignore hints of chaos etc.] However many of them are slowly becoming aware of malevolent forces [whatever they are since obviously daddy says there are no evil god type things]

So presumably the Lion [and bearing in mind his early years as basically a savage] starts to wonder if the things on Caliban ore connected to other things he may have encountered, perhaps the misgivings about the imperium make him begin to distrust the Calibanite natives.

[Id imagine his formative years would have given him a healthy dose of paranoia]

So yeah, I think that may be a part of the whole thing.

Honestly, I don't get from anything written that the Lion was tempted by Chaos or was a fence sitter... the only being he seems to truly trust is the emperor.
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
I agree i havnt seen any written evidence yet where it shows the lion was a fence sitter. apart from Astelan in Angels of darkness, and he was a fallen angel so thats not exactly a reliable source.
 

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and he was a fallen angel so thats not exactly a reliable source.
Theres just as much reason to believe a fallen angel as there is a loyalist Dark Angel to be honest.
 

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.Honestly, I don't get from anything written that the Lion was tempted by Chaos or was a fence sitter... the only being he seems to truly trust is the emperor.
Yeah I'm with you on this; I don't recall ever getting the slightest notion that the Lion was anything but a Loyalist. I haven't read Gav's book yet - it's sitting on my 'to read' pile. Probably get to it after I finish Nemesis.
 

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The Lions motives were greyed a little at the end of Fallen Angels( I think. Maybe Descent of Angels. Going senile) when he handed the siege weapons over to Perturabo and the little comments they made between each other. The Lion may have been misled by Perturabo or in cahoots with him, Im not sure. Maybe further clarification arises further into the HH series??
 

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Discussion Starter #8
What i do agree is the lion is angling to become the new warmaster after horus has turned traitor. He gave the seige engines to perturabo. Nobody knew perturabo had turned traitor. Perturabo was on his way to Istavann at that stage as part of the loyalist force.
 

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Theres just as much reason to believe a fallen angel as there is a loyalist Dark Angel to be honest.
Yes. Also; no. A fallen angel's perspective is going to be clouded with bitterness for a start. As I said, i think rather than a fence sitter the Lion was more concerned by what he percieved as disloyalty in his own legion.

Yeah I'm with you on this; I don't recall ever getting the slightest notion that the Lion was anything but a Loyalist. I haven't read Gav's book yet - it's sitting on my 'to read' pile. Probably get to it after I finish Nemesis.
Its a really good book, and it started the themes that the two HH books run with.

The Lions motives were greyed a little at the end of Fallen Angels( I think. Maybe Descent of Angels. Going senile) when he handed the siege weapons over to Perturabo and the little comments they made between each other. The Lion may have been misled by Perturabo or in cahoots with him, Im not sure. Maybe further clarification arises further into the HH series??
My reading of that was that it was intended to be a purely 'twist' ending. That after all these marines had died trying to keep the engines out of the hands of chaos, they end up being handed over to someone that we [the audience] know is going to turn traitor.

In other words, if we didn't have the meta knowledge about Petaruabo and only had the information from the HH books, that action would seem perfectly fine.
 

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One reason that all the Calibanites were sent home is obvious, the Lion wanted them there as a power base. The more Terrans he took with him on the frontlines the more of them would get killed, and the Calibanite Dark Angels who were loyal to the Lion first and Emperor second would back him up in the event he would betray the Imperium.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
One reason that all the Calibanites were sent home is obvious, the Lion wanted them there as a power base. The more Terrans he took with him on the frontlines the more of them would get killed, and the Calibanite Dark Angels who were loyal to the Lion first and Emperor second would back him up in the event he would betray the Imperium.
I couldnt disagree with this more.

That all happened 53 years before the heresy started so as i say again how would the lion be purging his legion 53 years before the heresy, when there was no such thing as the heresy then. LIon purged his legion because he found out that luther had got jealous and knew about the atomic bomb on the lions ship and did nothing about it untill the last minute when he had a change of heart.
Lion was a bit paranoid so sent back most of the calibanites with luther as he was a bit afraid that luther had support with them.
 

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Or he wanted the Terrans to be wiped out any way because he resented that he would have men who had not fought alongside him and were not totally loyal to him in his Legion. Just because the heresy wasn't occuring then doesn't mean he didn't want to purge the Dark Angels of those he couldn't count on.
 

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The Lions motives were greyed a little at the end of Fallen Angels( I think. Maybe Descent of Angels. Going senile) when he handed the siege weapons over to Perturabo and the little comments they made between each other. The Lion may have been misled by Perturabo or in cahoots with him, Im not sure. Maybe further clarification arises further into the HH series??
As I understood it, Lion was simply vying for Perturabo's support for when the time came for the Emperor to appoint a new Warmaster. It wasn't much of a secret that many of the Primarchs disagreed with Horus being named Warmaster, or for the position to be created at all. Lion wanting to become the next Warmaster isn't unusual in the slightest, since ambition and the drive to succeed are encouraged in SM's.

But the Lion had no idea that Perturabo was on Horus' side - that is what made the ending to that book such a huge cliffhanger. I remember reading it the first time and saying aloud "Oh no you DIDNT!?". I too am looking forward to seeing what happens to those siege engines, and whether or not we will have a chance to see Lion's reaction (talk about your epic facepalms).
 

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Nobody knew perturabo had turned traitor.
Or did they? Regardless, the amount of blind trust the Lion put in his 'cousin' Perturabo by giving up the Siege Weapons was either due to his arrogance (by thinking himself as the better Warmaster than Horus) or simple stupidity.

Yes. Also; no. A fallen angel's perspective is going to be clouded with bitterness for a start.
If anything, I would say a loyalist Dark Angel's perspective is going to be more clouded with bitterness.

In other words, if we didn't have the meta knowledge about Petaruabo and only had the information from the HH books, that action would seem perfectly fine.
Not really. As explained in Fallen Angels, the Lion knows that if Horus is to succeed in his rebellion he is going to have to confront the Emperor on Terra, and its implied that to do so he will need the siege engines that were present on Diamat. The Lion has seemingly defeated Horus' rebellion with a handful of men by securing the Siege engines for himself. Now, these vital weapons he simply gives up to another Primarch, one long known for his bitterness and complicated relations with the other Primarchs after 5 Primarchs had already publically turned rogue. To play it safe, wouldn't you think it would be more logical to keep the Siege Engines yourself, as after all you are sure of your own loyalty, but the loyalty of most of your brother Primarchs could easily be called into question...

That all happened 53 years before the heresy started so as i say again how would the lion be purging his legion 53 years before the heresy, when there was no such thing as the heresy then. LIon purged his legion because he found out that luther had got jealous and knew about the atomic bomb on the lions ship and did nothing about it untill the last minute when he had a change of heart.
Lion was a bit paranoid so sent back most of the calibanites with luther as he was a bit afraid that luther had support with them.
Whilst I don't necessarily agree with Lord of the Night here, your point is moot. It doesn't matter that the Horus Heresy was 53 or how ever many years away. The Lion may have been planning his own rebellion or subtle ploy (likely to secure the position of Warmaster for himself) by this point. It has nothing to do with the Horus Heresy. And by the way, it is also an assumption to say that the Lion banished Luther and Co. back to Caliban because of the atomic bomb incident (in fact we don't even know if the Lion knew about that), we don't know for sure why Luther and Co. were sent back.

As I understood it, Lion was simply vying for Perturabo's support for when the time came for the Emperor to appoint a new Warmaster.
That is what the conversation between the Lion and Perturabo tells us yes, but were they both being truthfully honest?

It wasn't much of a secret that many of the Primarchs disagreed with Horus being named Warmaster, or for the position to be created at all. Lion wanting to become the next Warmaster isn't unusual in the slightest, since ambition and the drive to succeed are encouraged in SM's.
Actually most of the Primarchs either accepted Horus' appointment or realised that Horus was the best and most obvious choice for Warmaster. There weren't many who truly disagreed with and/or challenged Horus' promotion. The Lion didn't challenge it publically, but in his arrogance he thought that he deserved the mantle himself and that he would have made a much better job than Horus at it.

But the Lion had no idea that Perturabo was on Horus' side
Surely though at a time when 5 Primarchs had already publically rebelled (several of which were thought of as some of the most loyal) and declared war on the Imperium, you wouldn't exactly be that trustworthy of many other Primarchs? Especially a distant, bitter and brooding one who never really had good relations with anyone...

Thankfully, there are several years of war left. Plenty of time to see if the Lion was holding back to see who won, before really committing himself.
Thanks Aaron for keeping us in suspense and fuelling the rumours! :p

I honestly hope he was a fence sitter... it just makes for a much better storyline
I agree, it makes a much better and more intriguing storyline in my opinion as well.

It even seems to fit with the Lion's character and personality, given his arrogance and desperation to prove his worth for the mantle of Warmaster during the ending of the Great Crusade and opening stages of the Heresy, I wouldn't put it past him to try and preform some other reckless feats during the Age of Darkness.

Its even perfectly plausable that given his frustration with the Emperor for seemingly ignoring him as a potential candidate for the position of Warmaster and outright choosing Horus instead that may push him into doubt...

The Collected Visions also claims that Terra had no contact at all with the Lion and the Dark Angels throughout the opening stages of the Heresy and presumably throughout the Age of Darkness until the climax of the Siege of Terra, just what was he doing for 7 years? This just further adds fuel to the ever-growing fire of suspicion surrounding El'Jonson.

There is definatley a lot of fishy goings-on where the Lion is concerned, I have no doubt that he was up to something...
 

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Discussion Starter #17
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Whilst I don't necessarily agree with Lord of the Night here, your point is moot. It doesn't matter that the Horus Heresy was 53 or how ever many years away. The Lion may have been planning his own rebellion or subtle ploy (likely to secure the position of Warmaster for himself) by this point. It has nothing to do with the Horus Heresy. And by the way, it is also an assumption to say that the Lion banished Luther and Co. back to Caliban because of the atomic bomb incident (in fact we don't even know if the Lion knew about that), we don't know for sure why Luther and Co. were sent back.

I think i know where your comming from here but the only problem with your explanation is that there was no such thing as warmaster when luther was banished. The Emperor was still at the head of the great crusade pulling all the strings. It was about 40 years after luther went back that Ullanor came about and the Emperor left.

IM not saying that im right in what im saying but all the arguments ive had against my theory just doesnt add up in the time line.
 

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I think i know where your comming from here but the only problem with your explanation is that there was no such thing as warmaster when luther was banished. The Emperor was still at the head of the great crusade pulling all the strings. It was about 40 years after luther went back that Ullanor came about and the Emperor left.

IM not saying that im right in what im saying but all the arguments ive had against my theory just doesnt add up in the time line.
Okay fair enough. But that still doesn't stop the Lion plotting his own rebellion or ploy prior to the Heresy (basically what I said in my last post minus the bit about the Warmaster). :p
 

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Perhaps a new HH book will come out and ALL will be resolved.

Or maybe typical GW will not tell the story and still leave us guessing at what happened in the HH. Still!! :hang1:
 

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The simple thing of it is, as the lore stands:

There has been no suggestions that the Lion was 'sitting' on the fence.

There have been several suggestions that he began to stop trusting the Calibanite Dark Angels and came to rely more and more on the terran Astartes.

There is however plenty of mystery around what happenned to the Dark Angels during the Heresy itself and why the Lion started actiong like such a douche towards his own chapter.

The lion is certainly paranoid, self-reliant and insular... so I don't much see him craving a Warmaster post nor siding with Horus.

What I could see [again, based on all that has been written to date] is him deciding that f**k horus and maybe f**k the emperor too...

But as Aaron says, plenty of story left to tell.
 
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