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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
is nonexistent.

This seems absurd to me that the Imperium could function with the eradication of two primarchs and approximately 200,000 legionnaires.

Without a doubt the citizenry of worlds liberated by the missing legions and the regiments of Imperial Guard that have fought buy their side would have not forgotten them. It is simply by author omission that their existence remains shrouded in mystery which ultimately boils down to a GW marketing move that has long outlived its purpose.

However, logically I can see the dilemma of introducing them being the roles they would fulfill and what characteristics their Primarchs would embody that have not already been attributed to the current legions.

But then again this is not an unsolvable issue.
 

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What makes you so sure there were 200,000 Space Marines to get rid of, or that they would be widely known?

The Alpha Legion existed sequestered away from the Imperium at large and their fellow legions for most of the Great Crusade. Only with the discovery of Alpharius did they gain any wide recognition. Then eventually even less information became availble on them.

Extermiantion mentions that it was thought the Alpha legion were a special project of the Emperor's. Why can't the missing legions be that too? They may have only existed in small numbers.

There was evidently something different about them for their removal to have a, been achievable and b, necessary.

Furthermore why wouldn't it be possible to forget them? Their removal from records was an Imperial Edict. Statues of the primarchs were removed. All public records deleted. The other primarchs (and presumably everyone else in the know) swore to never speak of those events.

It's quite possible they never served alongside any of the Imperial Army or those forces were quietly gotten rid of or isolated.

Look how much knowledge and lore the Imperium's already forget, what makes the 2 missing legions unique in their unforgettability?

Based on the references to them in the novels and forgeworld's supplements it appears they suffered their respective fates early on in the Great Crusade. That being the case it wouldn't be hard to remove mention of them. With all information on the removed, those who were there to witness events were either dead or sworn to secrecy. remember the Great Crusade lasted for 200 years, those who began it, especially the mortals, were not around at the end of it (excluding some astartes of course).


There are all manner of reasons why the two missing legions could be eliminated and forgotten.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
What makes you so sure there were 200,000 Space Marines to get rid of, or that they would be widely known?
Has it not been established that the average legion size was around 100,000?

The Alpha Legion existed sequestered away from the Imperium at large and their fellow legions for most of the Great Crusade. Only with the discovery of Alpharius did they gain any wide recognition. Then eventually even less information became availble on them.
Sequestered in what sense? Fighting their own secret wars without support from the Imperial Guard/Mechanicum? Highly unlikely especially given their war methodology.

What were they referred to prior to Alpharius's discovery? Simply as Legion X (or whatever their actual numeral designation is)? Each of the legions had an identity and a reputation prior to the discovery of their Primarchs.

Extermiantion mentions that it was thought the Alpha legion were a special project of the Emperor's. Why can't the missing legions be that too? They may have only existed in small numbers.
Again, the average legion size has been stated IIRC to be around 100,000. Let's say the AL and the missing legions were half that. That's still a huge number of superhumans to go missing seemingly hassle-free.

I haven't read the piece you're referring to so I'm not sure what the text implied by 'special project'.

Furthermore why wouldn't it be possible to forget them? Their removal from records was an Imperial Edict. Statues of the primarchs were removed. All public records deleted. The other primarchs (and presumably everyone else in the know) swore to never speak of those events.
The Edict of Nikae made the use of Warp sorcery illegal. It didn't mean a thing to the Thousand Sons and others. And I am aware that the law removed them from all records but you cannot suppress entire cultures, rogue traders, Imperial Guard soldiers, etc. that knew of them and prevent them from talking about them in secret consequentially leading to a never-ending stream of legends and half-truths about them that would inevitably emerge to the public.

Again, the idea that the primarchs would never mention them even in private conversations with one another seems extremely forced simply for tradition's sake and feels unrealistic. This is what I have issue with.

It's quite possible they never served alongside any of the Imperial Army or those forces were quietly gotten rid of or isolated.
That's extremely unlikely. Why would they be the only two legions to never work with their human counterparts? And there are so many things the Imperial Guard offer that the legions needed back in the day.

Based on the references to them in the novels and forgeworld's supplements it appears they suffered their respective fates early on in the Great Crusade. That being the case it wouldn't be hard to remove mention of them. With all information on the removed, those who were there to witness events were either dead or sworn to secrecy. remember the Great Crusade lasted for 200 years, those who began it, especially the mortals, were not around at the end of it (excluding some astartes of course).
To have completely gotten rid of the Imperial Guard that served with them seems implausible.

The closest example we have of a similar action is in the Emperor's Gift when the Inquisition and the Grey Knights hunt down the survivors from Armageddon with some success. But that was one world. How many served with the missing legions over the years before finally it was decided that the legions in question were to be culled? How many citizens of worlds they liberated bore witness to their ferocity in war?

Look how much knowledge and lore the Imperium's already forget, what makes the 2 missing legions unique in their unforgettability?
I am talking about the Great Crusade era not 40k.
 

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Has it not been established that the average legion size was around 100,000?

Again, the average legion size has been stated IIRC to be around 100,000. Let's say the AL and the missing legions were half that. That's still a huge number of superhumans to go missing seemingly hassle-free.
Well, there have been all the innuendo and rumors about the swelling of the UMs, with the speculation that the destruction of Legions II and XI were the cause. I imagine the legions didn't go willingly, so how many would be lost in Astartes to Astartes fighting? Say half? Then you're also dealing with the Imperium at the height of it's technological abilty, so mind-wiping the converted Astartes isn't as implausable as you imply. As we see by the time of the HH, the original Terran members of the Legions were relatively rare, so I'd expect that a good portion of the displaced Astartes would have been lost to attrition by the time of the Heresy.

The Edict of Nikae made the use of Warp sorcery illegal. It didn't mean a thing to the Thousand Sons and others. And I am aware that the law removed them from all records but you cannot suppress entire cultures, rogue traders, Imperial Guard soldiers, etc. that knew of them and prevent them from talking about them in secret consequentially leading to a never-ending stream of legends and half-truths about them that would inevitably emerge to the public.

Again, the idea that the primarchs would never mention them even in private conversations with one another seems extremely forced simply for tradition's sake and feels unrealistic. This is what I have issue with.
Well, the Remembrancers weren't there to just document the GC, but to supress all wrongful propaganda and thought, as well described in Horus Rising. To most Imperial colonies/conquered worlds, the Astartes were there and gone, with the Imperial Army taking over and the whole Administratum being the face of the Imperium. Why would Rogue Traders, Imperial Army units, etc maintain a legend of a fighting force they would only see once in a lifetime? For all they knew, the funky colored Astartes were still out there somewhere in the wide galaxy. Any Imperial Army units associated with the legions could be reassigned before the II and XIth were cleansed and they'd all be dead before the GC was even halfway through... again attrition and age.

Your concept of information 'emerging to the public' is a very contemporary one and not given to fudal societies, which is the Imperium. There's no freedom of the press, constitutional rights, etc. Hell, how many North Koreans know the outside world is more than what they're spoon fed by the dictatorship? And that's still with people who were alive before the Korean War in that country.

To have completely gotten rid of the Imperial Guard that served with them seems implausible.

The closest example we have of a similar action is in the Emperor's Gift when the Inquisition and the Grey Knights hunt down the survivors from Armageddon with some success. But that was one world. How many served with the missing legions over the years before finally it was decided that the legions in question were to be culled? How many citizens of worlds they liberated bore witness to their ferocity in war?

I am talking about the Great Crusade era not 40k.
Again, I don't think they needed to get rid of them to supress the infromation as a number of different options were available. On the other hand, the GC was destroying tens if not hundreds of billions of sentients who didn't toe the line with the Imperial Truth, what do you find so implausable they might accelerate the attrition rate in those few Imperial Army units assigned to the II and XIth Legions? Or just wipe them from the records? There were many Crusade Fleets that weren't attached to a Legion out there on their own. I think it's entirely reasonable that a few went missing when confronted with especially intractable opponents... by the time another Legion was called in, they were in the list of the honored dead.
 

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Bane of Empires
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is nonexistent.

This seems absurd to me that the Imperium could function with the eradication of two primarchs and approximately 200,000 legionnaires.

Without a doubt the citizenry of worlds liberated by the missing legions and the regiments of Imperial Guard that have fought buy their side would have not forgotten them. It is simply by author omission that their existence remains shrouded in mystery which ultimately boils down to a GW marketing move that has long outlived its purpose.

However, logically I can see the dilemma of introducing them being the roles they would fulfill and what characteristics their Primarchs would embody that have not already been attributed to the current legions.

But then again this is not an unsolvable issue.
I don't think anyone is suggesting they were simply forgotten, certainly not in the short-term. As you say, the Imperial Army who fought and died alongside Legions II and XI would not have simply forgotten them when they were purged from all Imperial Records. Their brother-Primarchs and the other Legions would have remembered them, as would the worlds they brought to compliance.

This seems absurd to me that the Imperium could function with the eradication of two primarchs and approximately 200,000 legionnaires.
This seems to be the crux of your point, to which I would respond: why not? Why couldn't the Imperium, as a whole, function as normal when two Legions and their Primarchs were purged (or otherwise lost)?
 

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A couple of quick points:

While very little is known about the Missing Primarchs and their Legions, the consensus seems to be that all twenty Primarchs had been found before II and XI were expunged from the records. Child-of-the-Emperor has ably compiled the supporting evidence for this. The timeline shown in either Betrayal or Massacre seemed to indicate dates for their respective removal, but I believe Laurie Goulding stated they were intended for different events in a thread over at the First Expedition Forums. At any rate, we have a good idea of when Alpharius was found, so we also have a good starting point for when II and XI were disappeared. I bring this up because I don't think this happened early in the Great Crusade.

The "average Legion size" that has been offered by the novel authors and by the Forge World team is circa the beginning of the Horus Heresy. That doesn't necessarily mean that's how large the Legions were ten years prior, never mind a few decades ago. The Legions appear to have started small, grown slowly but steadily, but ultimately relied on the discovery of their Primarch and accelerated creation/training processes for their numbers to actually skyrocket. The Primarch Discovery Order thread here and at First Expedition gives you an idea on when II and XI were found, so you can also get an idea of how their Legion sizes might compare around the time of their disappearance (which, again, should be some time after Alpharius was found).

Let's not compare the efforts to suppress knowledge of II and XI with the enforcement of the Edicts of Nikaea. The point here is that, while several Primarchs disagreed with Nikaea (and at least three either ignored them or found a way to work around them), all of the primarchs agreed to keep quiet about II and XI, and appear to have kept their word. Where the larger Imperium is concerned, remember that there are some things that aid the conspiracy. For instance, all interstellar communication is ultimately controlled by the parties who wish to keep II and XI a secret. That doesn't cover every angle, but it's a good starting point. I agree that this silence is largely enforced by author's fiat, but I don't think it's utterly remarkable for them to argue that a tyranny of this scope and power could accomplish such a feat.

As for the impact disappearing II and XI would have on the burgeoning Imperium? Well, I would argue that two primarchs and two full Legions and their fleets would have a tremendous impact in the 41st millennium. I would argue the same for just one of them. I don't mean this just in terms of sheer firepower, but mostly where the brain power of a primarch is concerned. We've seen some unfortunate mischaracterizations of the primarchs in the past (nothing that Ferrus Manus, Corax, and Vulkan are shown doing on Isstvan V seems better than idiotic), but the whole point of them seems to have been to combine amazing leadership with the ability to independently plan and execute campaigns of remarkable scope (sub-sector at the very least).

In the pre-Heresy 31st millennium, though? I think the disappearance of two primarchs probably had an impact, but it was negligible in the sense that it didn't ultimately prevent (or, rather, wouldn't have) the successful prosecution of the Great Crusade. Would the Great Crusade have been completed more quickly had they not met their respective ends? Sure. There's no evidence to the contrary.
 

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Talking about the 2 missing Primarchs there is some interesting info in Extermination. I've attached a pic with the info:

Clearly one of the Legions was destroyed as a result of recruiting tainted people. Whether they fell to chaos or xenos is open to debate or maybe the geneseed was corrupted by the people.

The other is even more interesting and I have no idea what they're talking about. Any ideas?
 

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Not to answer the question directly, but to add in info:

We know in Vengeful Spirit that:

Spoiler


However we have no real information to suggest that the 2 missing Primarchs ever had much of a legion to work with. We know that many of the legions started very small due to genetic instabilities, accidents and general recruiting problems. As far as i can recall we don't have information to suggest the missing Primarchs were ever at a proper stage capable of making war on the same level as the other legions. Numbers shouldn't and can't be a factor in any of this because we simply don't have that info.
 

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All the legions starters very small - with only "hundreds" or roughly a thousand Space Marines at first. Their size increased only as fast as the normal growth period of the gene seed and the training/implantation of recruits allowed. This was mitigated by combat losses and the odd catastrophe (Emperor's Children, Thousand Sons). That rate of growth increased meaningfully only after a legion's primarch was discovered.

Where this topic is concerned, one of the Missing Primarchs was the third discovered and the other was the nineteenth. According to Laurie Goulding, "All the primarchs met each other at least once," which means the Missing Primarchs were not expunged from the records until Alpharius was discovered. This didn't happen until "the last few decades before Ullanor". What does that tell us? One of the primarchs should have had a very well developed Legion and fleet by the time he was expunged from the records. The other would have had access to tried-and-true processes and most of the latest technology available at that point of the Great Crusade (but probably not Mk IV power armour or Tactical Dreadnought Armour). The size of that legion would have been among the smallest, though.
 

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I wonder how were they "removed" were they brutally expunged in combat or submitted themselves mercifully to the Emperor?
 

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All the legions starters very small - with only "hundreds" or roughly a thousand Space Marines at first. Their size increased only as fast as the normal growth period of the gene seed and the training/implantation of recruits allowed. This was mitigated by combat losses and the odd catastrophe (Emperor's Children, Thousand Sons). That rate of growth increased meaningfully only after a legion's primarch was discovered.

Where this topic is concerned, one of the Missing Primarchs was the third discovered and the other was the nineteenth. According to Laurie Goulding, "All the primarchs met each other at least once," which means the Missing Primarchs were not expunged from the records until Alpharius was discovered. This didn't happen until "the last few decades before Ullanor". What does that tell us? One of the primarchs should have had a very well developed Legion and fleet by the time he was expunged from the records. The other would have had access to tried-and-true processes and most of the latest technology available at that point of the Great Crusade (but probably not Mk IV power armour or Tactical Dreadnought Armour). The size of that legion would have been among the smallest, though.
Well the info I linked indicates that either of the missing Legions (most likely the legion belonging to the Primarch discovered 19th according to the official list) didn't expand beyond the "alpha stage" of roughly 1000 marines which would match what you said above.

It could also indicate that the Legion belonging to the first of the missing Primarchs (discovered third) could have been the one who recruited from corrupted sources which would have needed the Space Wolves.

I wonder how were they "removed" were they brutally expunged in combat or submitted themselves mercifully to the Emperor?
In addition the Space Wolves fluff indicates that they purged one or possibly both of the missing Legions and so it's likely at least one of the Legions was expunged in combat. The way Lorgar feared what the Emperor was going to do to him and his Legion also indicates expunged by combat too unless he was afraid of what the Emperor was going to do to him personally rather than to his Legion.
 

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In addition the Space Wolves fluff indicates that they purged one or possibly both of the missing Legions and so it's likely at least one of the Legions was expunged in combat. The way Lorgar feared what the Emperor was going to do to him and his Legion also indicates expunged by combat too unless he was afraid of what the Emperor was going to do to him personally rather than to his Legion.
Yes, I remember reading that fluff about Space Wolves as well. Also I'm pretty sure it was Lorgars fear of what the Emperor would do to him.
 

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I must say that I am ill-informed on the matter, but are there any possebility that Omegon is one of the missing primarchs? May explain why the alpha legion is so secrative, they are refuge for him. Maybe even they where charged with the mission of despatching him and his legion but took him in instead.
 

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I must say that I am ill-informed on the matter, but are there any possebility that Omegon is one of the missing primarchs? May explain why the alpha legion is so secrative, they are refuge for him. Maybe even they where charged with the mission of despatching him and his legion but took him in instead.
Highly unlikely. Alpharius and Omegon are essentially the same Primarch.
 

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Yes, I remember reading that fluff about Space Wolves as well. Also I'm pretty sure it was Lorgars fear of what the Emperor would do to him.
Well, this is where the inarticulate timeline for the purging of both legions comes into play. Why would Lorgar fear being purged if the actions don't take place until 15 years before the HH? Monarchia takes place 50 years prior to the HH, so theoretically, they haven't even found one of the two lost legions by that point.
 

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Well, this is where the inarticulate timeline for the purging of both legions comes into play. Why would Lorgar fear being purged if the actions don't take place until 15 years before the HH? Monarchia takes place 50 years prior to the HH, so theoretically, they haven't even found one of the two lost legions by that point.
Laurie Goulding has gone on record saying that all of the primarchs met each other at least once. Massacre gives a date for when Alpharius assumed command (981.M30), but not for when he was found.

Given this, it looks as if all the primarchs were found and the Missing Primarchs were taken care of prior to the events of The First Heretic.
 

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That cant be right. In deliverance lost, Corax questions the Emperor why the Ravenguard is the 19th legion when he only have 17 siblings, and only getting silence in response. And thats a flashback of their first meeting.
 

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Brother, I went through that debate at the First Expedition forum. Laurie shot that down as well/offered a different interpretation of what that interaction meant.
 
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