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I have a background in the Military, as a junior NCO, and I have studied warfare and military leadership. I also know my mythology well enough to have seen some epically poor choices made vis-a-vis parenting.

In reading the Heresy novels, i cannot help but see everything negative that happened as a direct result of the Emperor being a really crappy military leader in the sense of handling his subordinates and a literally epically poor parent.

A few examples;

Angron;

The Emperor basically steals him away from his final battlefield with his rebellion, then just dumps him on The Warhounds and walks away.

-He's the Emperor, he could have/should have easily joined his son in battle and turned the tide fighting side by side with him.
-He cares enough about Angron to save his life by abducting him, but he's not enough of a leader/parent to use his super-skillz(TM) to remove the butcher's nails against his will and then rehab him for a little while. Because the utter butchers the World Eaters became is a better option?

Horus;

After the Triumph at Ullanor, the Emperor leaves Horus in charge and basically high-tails it to Terra with nary a word.

-Besides this being perfectly encapsulated in a webcomic I saw once; "Horus, you are my most trusted Son, therefor, I am making you Warmaster" "What demands you attention elsewhere father?" "I can't tell you Horus, I just don't trust you enough"
-Also; the turning over of the Empire to civilian functionaries was a sore point which alienated many Primarchs and could have been handled better. This is a recurring theme in history and is always a problem, the Emperor should have known better.

Magnus;

The entire Concil of Nikea was stupid. The issue of magnus should have been better solved by A) treating him like an adult, B) sharing his plans, C) bringing Magnus and his legion in on what was going on, in general.

Essentially The Emperor knew Magnus well enough to predict how he would react to limited information and secrets. What occured was totally foreseeable. I'd even argue that given his potential, the threats at hand and the plans for him, Magnus and his legion should have been brought inside as the Terran legion over the Imperial Fists. Magnus certainly needed more direct tutoring and more trust.


Now obviously, these are just a few examples and some of this needed to happen to make/explain a more interesting(?) game universe. But from a different standpoint, what do you think? Of individual incidents and other examples and of my general thesis, if that is the right word, that the Horus Heresy is basically down to the Emperor's failings as a Parent and a Military Leader.
 

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I do agree with you, had the same thinking. that's why I worship Chaos and not the feebleminded emprah.
Honestly he did everithing wrong. Maybe its hard to be a communion of psykers souls, an ubermensch and just act in a human way. he was too focused on his goals and just treated his own sons like pawns. He was the king, they where servants, in his mind. Also, writers at gw have no real idea of what is a credible social interaction and a proper dialogue. see this again:
"Horus, you are my most trusted Son, therefor, I am making you Warmaster" "What demands you attention elsewhere father?" "I can't tell you Horus, I just don't trust you enough"
A skizophrenic could have made more sense out of a sentence...
 

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Regarding Angron and indeed almost all of the primarchs,we have to understand that we are reading the books through a character or characters, and whatever they subjectively interpret,we read.
Angron for instance, who other than angron supports his narrative?

Regarding the butchers nails, im 90% sure they are khronate (chaos) is nature, they bite harder the stronger the psychic intrusion, so the Emperors psychic power is worse than useless, they also tried other ways to remove them, but they would have all ended in Angrons death.

Regarding Horus, again, whos perspectives do we see?not the Emperors, i agree with the Emperor, a superhuman godlike being (im talking about horus) should be able to deal with abandonment issues, the fact he couldnt evidently shows he shouldnt have ever told him about the webway.
the whole point of the imperium was to empower humanity, not give it to the superhumans, they were custodians, not dictators.

And regarding Magnus, the one who was drowning in his own vanity, destroyed the imperium, enslaved his sons and deflected everything with cool air of dignity and arrogance, lets be serious, the Emperor did pretty good given the hand he was given.
Let us also remember that Magnus had fallen LONG before Nikea, indeed he fell almost at the beginning of the crusade, when he bargained with Tzeentch for his sons.

Heres a quote by the Emperor of man "it pains me, but I will have to leave you all when you need me the most. I’ll try to watch over you when I can"

IMO, the biggest mistake the Emperor made was giving anyone the authority of warmaster.
 

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This all falls back to the tree hugging liberals. If the Emperor would have been allowed to spank his children when they behaved badly, this whole heresy thing wouldn't have happened.
Seriously though, the Emp should have taken a stronger interest in the dealings of the empire. He could have handled his leaving a whole lot better than he did.
 

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-He's the Emperor, he could have/should have easily joined his son in battle and turned the tide fighting side by side with him.
Every time a Primarch bonded with a group of humans, they were generally allowed to join the Legions. Russ's merry band of men. The Lion's brothers from the Order. Corax's freedom fighters. Generally these guys were honorable and noble to one degree.

What would Angron's have brought to the table? A bunch of mentally broken killers. So rather than risk having the Warhounds poisoned by the ex-gladiators, the Emperor conveniently takes them out of the equation...

Is my theory. I can't think of any other logical explanation. I'm guessing the Emperor hoped that Angron would get over the issue. Better the chance that Angron would come around than the guarantee of screwing the Warhounds with thousands of psychotic killers.

(Yes, this happened to the Night Lords, but when the Emperor arrived on Nostramo it was a peaceful, productive world under Curze's control.)

-He cares enough about Angron to save his life by abducting him, but he's not enough of a leader/parent to use his super-skillz(TM) to remove the butcher's nails against his will and then rehab him for a little while. Because the utter butchers the World Eaters became is a better option?
He was beyond Imperial science. The mechanism controlling Angron's emotions came from ill-understood technology from the Dark Age. They could not remove it without killing him.

-Besides this being perfectly encapsulated in a webcomic I saw once; "Horus, you are my most trusted Son, therefor, I am making you Warmaster" "What demands you attention elsewhere father?" "I can't tell you Horus, I just don't trust you enough"
Yeah, major screw up here. Dunno...maybe when we see The Master of Mankind come out, we might get a reason.

-Also; the turning over of the Empire to civilian functionaries was a sore point which alienated many Primarchs and could have been handled better. This is a recurring theme in history and is always a problem, the Emperor should have known better.
I don't think this was a wrong move. The execution may have been rough, but the idea is sound.

Many of the Primarchs were warlords first and last. You weren't going to see the Perturabo or Russ founding civilizations. They weren't going to enrich the societies they brought to compliance. They needed someone else to manage the worlds. To help them grow and to ensure these worlds are supplying the Great Crusade to the best of their abilities.

Thus enters the Administratum. Let most of the Primarchs focus what they are good at, battle, and let the civilians do the nitty gritty work.

A) treating him like an adult,
The Emperor did. Notice the pass tense?

He warned Magnus that there were dark things out in the universe. Things you don't want to talk with, much less strike bargains with. Magnus and his Legion ignored this and went along its merry way.

The Emperor had to bring the hammer down before something drastic happened.
 

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Lorgar...let's talk about Lorgar

There was really no better way of handling Monarchia?
The way I see it, for centuries the Emperor failed to dissuade Lorgar of his beliefs, all the while Lorgar's lagging behind compared to his brothers' progress in the Great Crusade (due to erecting temples, converting the newly beaten populace, etc.) and the Emperor's just about had it.

What better way to teach an overly melodramatic, emotional and delusional son then to take a drastic, unnecessary measure?
 

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There was really no better way of handling Monarchia?
Massacre suggests that the Emperor confronted Lorgar earlier and told him that "if [Lorgar] persisted he would have to suffer the consequences."

I think this is another Magnus style disciplinary action. If you don't listen to my stern warnings not to touch the fire, then I'm going to have to step it up a notch.
 

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"Hi boys, today's lesson is on the warp, Chaos and the 4 major aspects of Chaos that form powerful sentient entities"

"Lorgar, this is the reason i immediately killed Lorgar, Erebus and destroyed Colchis as worship of these Chaos entities was intrinsic to their culture"

"Angron, I know you are glad we rescued your gladiator army and I personally dedicated my time to removing the implants from your head, you are so much calmer now"

"Konrad, again, i just wanted to say I love you" ***hug***

"All, this is my last lesson before I return to Earth to work on a Terran gateway to the eldar webway network. This will also explain we have strengthened the librarian programme, in order to make you more prepared for the dangers that lie out in the galaxy and why we need a new means to travel and communicate that is not warp dependent."

and so was ushered in a new age, the age of Brighthammer, and all was well.
 

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The problem is the emperor wanted to move away from psykers, his plan was to remove humanities dependance on the warp as much as possible. Therefore depriving chaos of power.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
You know actually, not warning the primarchs about Chaos was another thing that stuck in my mind. I think that so far every Heresy book has at least one of those WTF moments.
 

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The problem is the emperor wanted to move away from psykers, his plan was to remove humanities dependance on the warp as much as possible. Therefore depriving chaos of power.
I thought that his plan was to prepare humanity for its destiny as a fully psychic species. Human evolution is inexorably speeding them towards a future where if the species survives, almost all humans will be psykers.
 

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You know actually, not warning the primarchs about Chaos was another thing that stuck in my mind. I think that so far every Heresy book has at least one of those WTF moments.
This thread may be of interest to you.
 

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I thought that his plan was to prepare humanity for its destiny as a fully psychic species. Human evolution is inexorably speeding them towards a future where if the species survives, almost all humans will be psykers.
If that was the case why even try and breach the webway?

The emperor is capable of killing chaos if it was weak enough, however the only way for it to be weakened is by starving it if it's primary food source.

Human emotions. By having an imperium governed by logic and reason most of the power they gain is gone.
 

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If that was the case why even try and breach the webway?
Because having more psykers, if anything, just makes warp travel (and existence in general) even more dangerous.

Human emotions. By having an imperium governed by logic and reason most of the power they gain is gone.
Promoting logic and reason does not remove human emotions from the equation. And it is emotion which is the primary source of the gods' energy.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I guess i really overlooked the obvious here; what ARE the emperor's actual motivations?

I had always taken for granted that the emperor's goals involved ushering in mankind's new psychic age. But I also used to take for granted, pre-heresy novels that the emperor was a god and everybody saw him that way and he endorsed it.

I'm not 100% sure what the Emp's views on psykers were because there is so much contradiction and flip-flopping.

Another theory is that the Emp saw the heresy and all that followed coming and made it all part of his plan. sort of a fundamentalist view if you will, but there it is. Even makes all the boondoggles have a sort of sense from a certain light.
 

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from what ive read, heard, seen, what caused the heresy to start was the emporer/ultramarines destroying the 'perfect city' as this is what caused lorgar to go and discover the truth about the gods of chaos, and inspire the other primarchs to rise against the imperium.
 

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from what ive read, heard, seen, what caused the heresy to start was the emporer/ultramarines destroying the 'perfect city' as this is what caused lorgar to go and discover the truth about the gods of chaos, and inspire the other primarchs to rise against the imperium.
The destruction of Monarchia was the cause of the Horus Heresy just as much as the 'Pig War' (between the Austro-Hungarian Empire and Serbia) was the cause of the First World War.

As in, it was one (amongst countless) important factor(s) but wasn't the cause (or even the catalyst).
 

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