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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Now forgive me if this has been covered before, but I did a search and could not find any reference to it.

Just started to read 'Age of Darkness', Ultras verses Death Guard and World Bearer's.

There is a reference to the Ultramarines 4th Company "The Troublesome Forth" being 3000 strong. Later on,
the 43rd Company is mentioned as one of the units involved. Not all the Ultramarine forces were actually present during the battle, so we do not know just how many were there.
But just how many Companies did the Ultramarines actually have in their Legion. 43 Companies means at least 129,000 marines.

Is there a definative number?
 

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I am Alpharius.
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I have heard that they would have been just bellow 300,000 strong. Sounds like a lot to me, but "most" legions were around the 100,000 mark, and the Ultras were the biggest, right?
 

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To my understanding the Ultramarines, at their peek, were 250,000 Astartes strong. Most believe the Word Bearers were a "close" second with 100,000. Now I have heard the belief that all the Legions (bar some) were around 100,000 -- which would probably put the Word Bearers more so around 150,000 - 200,000.

I know in First Heretic they give 100,000 as the Legion's number -- but most of these authors are simply inventing the numbers as they go.
 

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Bane of Empires
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The Ultramarines are noted as being the largest Crusade-era Legion at around the 250,000 mark.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
The Ultramarines are noted as being the largest Crusade-era Legion at around the 250,000 mark.
So, here is another conundrum. When the legions were broken down to Chapters after the Heresy, the Ultramarines would have been technically split down into 250 Chapters(?), baring casualties suffered during the battles. There are only supposed to be 1000 post-Heresy Chapters........ So, the Ultra's make up a quarter of them. The other 750 Chapters coming from the other loyal Legions. Does the math add up?
 

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Yes. 8 chapters of about 100,000 astartes are slightly above 750 chapters. If you take into account some being higher, some lower and casualties throughout all chapters (remember smurfs had 250k at theire peak) it is probably 1,000 chapters. And no one said they all had to have full strength.
 

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The 1,000 chapters were not all created at the same time. The 2nd Founding, which happened very soon after the end of the Heresy, broke the Legions down into Chapters. There are definitive numbers for the number of Chapters each Legion splits into, for example IIRC the Imperial Fists only split into 3 Chapters (IF, Black Templars and Crimson Fists). The Ultramarines number is not defined but (again IIRC) believed to be in the mid-20s (I think there is an exact number given but I don't have it to hand, and even then I think it's phrased as 'at least 2x known chapters' or words to that effect).

The remaining chapters were created over subsequent foundings. There is probably a lot of information on these here boards if you search for '2nd founding' or 'successor' chapters.
 

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Just as a reminder, the number of Chapters for the Second Founding is the known number. There is every possibility that each Loyal Legion split off into a greater number of Chapters than that known. That's not to say that they didn't suffer incredible casualties during the Scouring; just that there might have been more whose names and origins were lost during that time of instability and collapsing society.
 

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Bane of Empires
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So, here is another conundrum. When the legions were broken down to Chapters after the Heresy, the Ultramarines would have been technically split down into 250 Chapters(?), baring casualties suffered during the battles. There are only supposed to be 1000 post-Heresy Chapters........ So, the Ultra's make up a quarter of them. The other 750 Chapters coming from the other loyal Legions. Does the math add up?
There are essentially two interpretations. Firstly as AoB said, either the Ultramarines suffered massive casualties during the Heresy/Scouring (primarily during the Scouring) - roughly around 90% based on the Baron's maths. Or as Phoebus said, the list of Chapters we have for the Second Founding is incomplete. Or quite possibly a mix of the two.
 

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The Apocrypha of Skaros is one of the few (in 'verse) documents that lists the UM's Successors, listing 23; however, it is also noted as being incomplete.
I have memories of a second Apocrypha, possibly of Davos, another incomplete list of 2nd Founding Chapters, although I think this one is a more generalised list encompassing other Legions. Could be wrong on the second one.

GFP
 

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The Ultramarines lost ALOT of their numbers during the scouring trying to hold the Imperium together, somewhere in the region of 90%
I somehow doubt they only had 10% of their original numbers left, especially when you consider how many successors they had. Then again if they had massive numbers originally then 10% of what they had may still of been enough to break them down to over 10 chapters possibly.
 

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I somehow doubt they only had 10% of their original numbers left, especially when you consider how many successors they had. Then again if they had massive numbers originally then 10% of what they had may still of been enough to break them down to over 10 chapters possibly.
If they lost 90% of their men that'd leave them with 25,000 marines (out of a total of 250,000).

That's enough for 25 Chapters.

As said earlier, the Apocrypha of Skaros lists 23 second founding successors.

Combined with the First Founding chapter, that'd give us somewhere in the ballpark of 24,000 marines surviving.

The Apocrypha of Skaros is one of the few (in 'verse) documents that lists the UM's Successors, listing 23; however, it is also noted as being incomplete.
I have memories of a second Apocrypha, possibly of Davos, another incomplete list of 2nd Founding Chapters, although I think this one is a more generalised list encompassing other Legions. Could be wrong on the second one.

GFP
In the SM codex it doesn't say the Skaros list is incomplete. It only states that the successors are not named, simply given a total of 23.

The Apocrypha of Davos explicitly names 8 successor chapters.

Without knowing the date the Apocrypha of Skaros was compiled, it's really difficult for us to nail how accurate it is. If it was created after M36, the number of successor chapters is probably higher. Possibly considerably higher.

The closer it gets to m31 the better we'd be. As it stands now, all it can do is give us a bottom end figure of 24 chapters as of the Second Founding.

Edit: The Apocrypha of Davio was penned in m33. With so few chapters named then, I doubt most of the second founding chapters made it very far. Probably lost during the turmoil after the Scouring. 24 is probably a solid figure, I believe.
 

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43 Companies means at least 129,000 marines.

Is there a definative number?
Im trying to work this out - company = 100 men (+ a few hangers on - say 110)

so 110 *43 = 4730 men.

The way you are working it out means there are 3000 men per company - what have I missed?
 

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Im trying to work this out - company = 100 men (+ a few hangers on - say 110)

so 110 *43 = 4730 men.

The way you are working it out means there are 3000 men per company - what have I missed?
Pre-heresy, companies didn't have to equal one hundred men. To give a couple of example off the top of my head, in "Horus Rising" five companies are sent to deal with the "Emperor". Yet there were, "...thousands of gleaming white figures bobbing and running forward across the skirt platforms..."

So each of the companies had to number at least 400 men (5 companies*400 men=2000)

Later on we get more support as the, "First Company, was crossing the bulwarks into the far flank of the palace. Loken magnified his view, resolving hundreds of white-armoured figures pouring through the smoke and chop-fire."

The first company numbers at least 200. Probably more.

As a counter point, when they're talking about the Emperor's Children companies it's pretty explicit that their companies consist of 100 men.

Perhaps as a smaller Legion, the EC stuck to 100 man companies?
 

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Im glad I hadnt missed something as clear cut as a company = 3000 men.

I do remember reading that a 'grand' company was about 400-500 men - and each one had numerous 'under-captains' below the senior captain.

I was under the impression that pre-hersey companies were in that region, but Ive never heard of a company being in excess of 1000 marines.
 

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I actually always assumed each Company/Grand Company/Chapter had to be a thousand Astartes-strong or more--with the exception of the Emperor's Children, for reasons already mentioned.

Cheers,
P.
This is the problem with assumptions though. Ive read no where that says a grand company is the same as a chapter.

Its really hard when you read things set in a different time frame which use the same words to mean different things.
 

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Ah, the weekly numbers question.

I know in First Heretic they give 100,000 as the Legion's number -- but most of these authors are simply inventing the numbers as they go.
Actually, no, we're not.

Apologies for the cut and paste:

The average Legion size was 100,000. All of them, with the exception of the Ultramarines, had around 100,000 warriors. The smaller ones - such as the Raven Guard - had around 80,000. But 100,000 was the "average" size of them. They were all huge. Huuuuuuuuuge, I tells ya.

The earlier books (before and including A Thousand Sons) were operating from older canon sources. While writing The First Heretic, I asked at a Horus Heresy meeting if we could nail the proper Legion sizes down. It was agreed by Games Workshop's IP Manager, Alan Merret (responsible for a lot of the HH lore over the years) that they were 100,000 strong, as noted in Horus Heresy: The Collected Visions.
 
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