Warhammer 40k Forum and Wargaming Forums banner
1 - 20 of 22 Posts

·
The Emperor Protects
Joined
·
5,262 Posts
Pretty much every mention of marneus calgar, such as killing an avatar, something Fulgrim had great difficulty in doing and even then required a deamon blade
 

·
The Emperor Protects
Joined
·
5,262 Posts
Which if anything makes Calgars defeat of it even more absurd. Tbh its just the Ultramarines in general for me. They just can't do anything wrong, every other major chapter i can think of has had major defeats or really shitty things happen to them or are flawed in some way. Not the smurfs though, literally everything they do is perfect, evrythings a win, fuck guilliaman died yet they still HAD to add a little tid-bit in that some believe hes healing, sure he's not but the very fact that it exists pisses me off
 

·
The Emperor Protects
Joined
·
5,262 Posts
Well in the fluff it explicitly states that the terminators efforts and the heavy weapons did nothing but make it angry, it shrugged off the terminators attacks and didn't slow it at all, it doesn't say its been damaged at all, and it wasnt the entire chapter shooting it, they had alot of other eldar to shoot aswell.

And yet i dont see any other chapter masters or chapters doing these uber heroic deeds comparable to the primarchs themselves
 

·
The Emperor Protects
Joined
·
5,262 Posts
Ah sorry the Alpha Legion, 1. The Emperors children encounter had never gone into any detail other than Guilliman finally did somethin wrong. The Tyranid wars are still shown as huge victories, Macragge wasnt lost either. And where is this that they lost 90% of their chapter?
 

·
The Emperor Protects
Joined
·
5,262 Posts
Bitchy for no reason? the entire point of this thread is to vent which fluff you don't like, and many, many others have a problem with the Avatar fight
 

·
The Emperor Protects
Joined
·
5,262 Posts
They didnt lose 90% though, neither did they suffer horendous casualties, they lost peanuts compared to the other legions. Blood Angels, Raven Guard, Salamanders, Iron Hands, White Scars all suffered massively, almost all of them utterly devastated, then the Fists suffered horribly in the iron cage, the dark angels took huge casualties and had a inter legion civil war, and the Wolves lost massive numbers on Prospero not being an overly large Legion anyway and lost an entire great company. The Ultramarines had it quite nice and cushty by comparison
 

·
The Emperor Protects
Joined
·
5,262 Posts
I have proved it?! i just looked over that entry, like i said, it doenst mention anything of the Avatar being injured, it even says that it just got more angry. Calgar gets beaten up a bit sure, but even so, Fulgrim, a fucking primarch had a huge drawn out battle with it and in the end had to trick the avatar to kill it and use a deamon blade. And i hardly see an Avatar without a sword as being defencless, they can do plenty of damage with their hands alone.
 

·
The Emperor Protects
Joined
·
5,262 Posts
For the Ultramarines is because it sells. Some like me, may have an issue with a chapter/legion with few if any flaws and always perfroming these massive acts of heroics that the others barely seems to do. But to those entering the game, young gamers in particular(no offence, but from my experience of gaming its true) it sells alot more. You make the Ultramarines the literal poster boys, on all the boxes/codexs/games etc and be almighty superior marines then people are going to buy them. Its economics 101. Then you add the Space Wolves, now the majority will go for the poster boys, but theres always some who like the a rebel while still wanting the 'good' side, Space Wolves give you that. The you've got the mysterious ones(dark angels) for those who like that, and the flawed ones(blood angels) for that audience.
 

·
The Emperor Protects
Joined
·
5,262 Posts
Agreed, theres something definetly wrong with that Ultramarines fluff if thats the case. To lose 200 thousand marines with no particular mention as to why seems a bit odd at the very least. I dont see it
 

·
The Emperor Protects
Joined
·
5,262 Posts
It wasn't just them though, they would have had legions of guardsman at their command, the remaining legions still had strength to fight. And even then 200k casualties is just unbelievably large, most loyalist legions casualties combined didn't come to that and, hell both combined Istvaan massacres didnt even come close to that.
 

·
The Emperor Protects
Joined
·
5,262 Posts
It wasn't just them, but it was mainly them. The Raven Guard, Salamanders, and Dark Angels didn't take part in the Scouring in any great amount, the Space Wolves and Imperial Fists were on a vengeance crusade that only nominally aided the Imperium.
The Blood Angels, and I presume the Iron Hands, were in turmoil reorganising their Legion after losing the Primarch and a lot of veteran troops- and as soon as the White Scars returned home to recoup they began their own hunt for the DE who stole thousands of tribesmen from their homeworld, resulting in the Khan's disappearance (again with most of the Legion's veterans), though his actual disappearance occurred after the Legion's split.

7 years of shouldering the burden in a fight that would have been more consistently intense than the Heresy is going to result in a hell of a lot of casualties- the fact that any Ultramarines survived at all is a testament to Guilliman.
So in other words it's yet again showing something only the almighty Guilliamn and Ultramarines could accomplish. More intense fighting than the heresy that managed to decimate the majority of the Legions yet the Ultramarines still pull through. Links me right back round to my orginal point of the Ultramarines having fuck all flaws and able to fight a war (mainly on their lonesome) and survive intact that the was more intense than the war the other 8 legions combined got fucked in. Hmmm so i'll add this to my list of fluff that doesn't sit well
 

·
The Emperor Protects
Joined
·
5,262 Posts
So in taking worlds held by humans they suffered these horendous loses? still doesn't add up. And yes the Ultramarines were big, but they still lost men at Calth, and even then they werent as big as the other 8 combined. It's just unbelievable that they survived a war that was worse than another war that 8 other legions at full strength and with their primarchs leading them got utterly fucked in
 

·
The Emperor Protects
Joined
·
5,262 Posts
Sorry for double posting, but just read this.

I believe that the mystery around this big number disapearing after the Heresy is indeed something that should be pointed out.

And I also believe that its not that people "hate" the Ultramarines. If there is hate it is often a misplaced hatred. At least to me, I think that the Ultramarines background fluff is well enough to where it could be one of the GWs most favored chapters. However, with all these over-glorifying stories about how fucken awesome they are, where an Ultramarine pulls an awesome knife out of his ass to make a daemon prince go "poof" and roaming around the eye of terror being completely fine, and the rest of the smurf crap thats being shoved down fans throats, its just like... :shok:... okay I get it. You can stop now.
Hitting the nail on the head their. Sure i don't like the Ultramarines, i won't deny that, hate no though. It's just like crawford said though and as i have been saying. They literally can do no wrong. Hell i really like the Tyranid war the Ultramarines fought, it's interesting and a good bit of a fluff, i like alot of the fluff that the UM have.

What i don't like is the fact that they have no fething bad points. Not one. All the other chapters/legions have sufffered massively with no silver lining. The UM don't have that. The scouring takes away a hefty part of their legion, yet its still shown to be how tactically brilliant Guilliamn is and how awsome they are that they survived and pulled it off at all, so no flaw their, just more uber fluff. They lost their 1st company at Macragge sure, but it was a valiant and meaningful last stand giving the rest of the UM time to regroup on them, still a victory with silver lining despite the losses. Guilliaman dies, and while we all know that he's dead the moment that stasis field is lifted they still HAD to add in that little rumour of him healing, yes its crap but theirs always going to be some who choose to believe it. It goes on and on and on.

Like i said, its not the Ultramarines fully, its more that i can't stand the lack of flaws. I would love to see them get massacred somewhere, like other chapters have, tricked or duped or make some massive error of judgement or something. They are simply infalable, and that's why i don't like them.
 

·
The Emperor Protects
Joined
·
5,262 Posts
As with all historical things there's no context to the achievement. Did Calgar go toe to toe one on one with the Avatar, no probably not that would be retarded. But under sustained attack the Avatar is banished and Calgar was there, Calgar killed the Avatar. Just as Alexander the Great conquered, he didn't do it by himself but it's always written that HE did it.

It even mentions in Dante's backstory that killing the Bloodthister is gone in folklore and he refuses to confirm or deny it, preferring to allow the common man to have heroes to believe in.

Aramoro
On the contrary, the majority of the battle is detailed and Calgars fight with the Avatar is well detailed, toe to toe is exactly what he did. The rest of the UM with him were quite busy with the other Eldar, the ones that did fire at the Avatar did little damage. The Dante one however is entirely open to myth and interpretation and i for one hope it is a warped acount of what happened. I love the Blood Angels and Dante but that would be worse than the Avatar fight, cutting a Bloodthirster in half with one blow with a weapon that wasn't even a Primarchs.
 

·
The Emperor Protects
Joined
·
5,262 Posts
Experience at complaining about how sad he is about Sanguinius's death?
To be fair, Dante is by far the most experienced Chapter Master and argueably one of the most experienced marine alive apart from Bjorn(and apparently some ancient Salamander from the salamander book i've not read)

But even then it's still ridicolous. I've said so above. Calgar killing an Avatar is just bollucks no matter how you try and justify it imo, that's my opinion and im fully entitled to it. But i still agree that Dante killing a bloodthirster is just as bad if not worse considering it says one blow, but then that account isn't confirmed, it specifically states they don't know whether that really happened at all, its all folklore and legend.
 
1 - 20 of 22 Posts
Top