[Serpion5]

It's been a loong time since one of these threads, but I feel that with the evolution of the fluff over these past few editions, it might be worth a re-visit.

Essentially, the question is who wins 40k? Which race is the last standing?

I ask this again now because of the changes we've experienced, in a few races moreso than most, but still.


The necrons and c'tan were once major contenders for this position. However, as we all know they are no longer a united faction. There is now a chance that they will like the orks devolve into a semi-permanently feuding group of empires too busy bickering to ever truly unite and re-take the galaxy. The c'tan however are a different matter. Every shard the necrons lose is a shard freed, implying that eventually the c'tan will be whole again. Could they still pose a threat on their own? Keeping in mind we have no idea how much they can interact with other races without their necron forged bodies, but the necrons seem to fear this outcome greatly, so who really knows?

The tyranids remain a prominent threat, however one tidbit of fluff has changed. Previously we had no idea the numbers of the remaining Hive Fleets yet to enter our galaxy. Essentially, we still don't. But the Silent King of the necrons had spent a great deal of time in the void between, and returned because he encountered the tyranids and planned to lead his people against them. We don't know how much of their forces he saw, but we know that he considers their defeat entirely possible. He believes that his forces united could defeat them, which seems to imply that a galaxy's worth of military forces do indeed stand a chance of defeating the tyranids in whole, provided they can form a cohesive retaliation.

Chaos. For the most part these guys remain the same threat. Except...

Eldar. I noticed there seems to be less emphasis on the doom factor in the new eldar codex. I haven't read it right through, but I did get the impression that Ynnead has gone from a might happen sort of deal to an almost certainly will happen. So if a Chaos God truly can be killed, then what does that mean for the aftermath? A new eldar god but no eldar, could that mean some sort of regenesis of the eldar race?

 

[zerachiel76]

I'm not sure whether my reply belongs here or in a new thread but I enjoyed reading your post so much I'll put it here and respond to you.

I see the final battle being between the Necrons and the Tyranids as these two factions have the combo of technology, firepower and relative unity.

My question is what happens to the gods of Chaos without humanity to support them? Three of the four Chaos gods seem to be self defeating in that they need humanity's emotions to support them but by their natures they will destroy humanity if they control it.

If humanity is destroyed, whether by Necrons, Tyranids or by something else, will they be able to continue in their present form or will they wither and slowly starve as per the scenario presented in Legion.

Whether Slaanesh is destroyed by humanity's downfall or if it can still exist on the scraps of emotions provided by the few Eldar/Dark Eldar remaining I have no idea.

 

[Khorne's Fist]

Necrons in the end. Nids may come along and destroy all biological life in the galaxy, but then they head off looking for the next meal. That leaves the last man standing being the Necrons, whether they come together to fight them,or just squabble between themselves while the nids eat lunch.

If all life disappears, Chaos goes with it, as there is nothing to worship them.

Then again, what could a returning primarch do for the Imperium?

 

[Gret79]

In Valedor,

an eldar farseer gets killed and his soul gets released to the warp – just before Slaanesh munches him down like a dry twix, he witnesses the future and his soul ‘sparkles with joy’. Then Slaanesh noms him.

It seems much more like a certainty for ynnead to arise – it’s forseen than Iyanna Arienel will find the last of the tears of Morai Heg and this will allow Ynnead to rise. The eldar gods that were eaten by Slaanesh still exist within slaanesh and Ynnead will be able to free them.

And the Rhana Dhandra is happening now.

So yeah, the eldar future isn’t as weepy as it was…

 

[Old Man78]

I'm still going for a happy sort of ending for man, it will get real bad first but in the end somehow the big E is renewed, the chaos gods are shattered and are no longer an existential threat

 

[Moriouce]

If we say that the Tyranids consume everything in the Galaxy and move on, then Wouldn't the Necrons go to sleep again?

Then those has been hiding out in the eye of terror and the webway still exist? DE and the Chaos Legions?

Then again, If both Terra and Cadia are list to the Tyranids, Wouldn't the Eye engulf the whole galaxy? Now that couldnt be good for Tyranids and Necrons alike. I bet my balls on The Chaos legions living it out in a galaxy spaning Eye of terror in the end.

 

[Child-of-the-Emperor]

@Serpion: I've just scanned through the new Eldar codex now, and I can't find any reference to Y'nnead apart from exactly what was already stated in previous codicies. Any specific references?

I'm not too sure about the optimistic take on the Eldar. The latest codex is still littered with pessimistic statements such as "The Eldar are doomed and they know it well". Also, correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the Rhana Dandra was specifically stated to be a victory for Chaos and the ending of reality... not a victory for the Eldar or the Forces of Order.

If we say that the Tyranids consume everything in the Galaxy and move on, then Wouldn't the Necrons go to sleep again?

According to their older lore yes, but probably not according to their most recent lore. The reason they went to sleep in 3rd edition was because there was no sustainable food source for the C'tan. The reason they went to sleep in 5th edition was because after the rebellion against the C'tan the Necrons weren't powerful enough to challenge the Eldar.

Then again, If both Terra and Cadia are list to the Tyranids, Wouldn't the Eye engulf the whole galaxy? Now that couldnt be good for Tyranids and Necrons alike. I bet my balls on The Chaos legions living it out in a galaxy spaning Eye of terror in the end.

Yes. In the setting, we are the midst of the 13th Black Crusade. Without Cadia (and thus the pylons) nothing is restricting the Eye of Terror from expanding. The extreme amount of bloodshed is attracting daemons in their billions, and Abaddon has forged pacts with the Daemon Primarchs for their support.

Chaos is, and always has been, the greatest threat to the 40k galaxy.

 

[Malus Darkblade]

I'm not too sure about the optimistic take on the Eldar. The latest codex is still littered with pessimistic statements such as "The Eldar are doomed and they know it well". Also, correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the Rhana Dandra was specifically stated to be a victory for Chaos and the ending of reality... not a victory for the Eldar or the Forces of Order.

According to Lexi, Rhana Dandra will end reality and the immaterium so I don't see how it's a victory for Chaos.

"Rhana Dandra is the Eldar name for the final great battle with Chaos. It is written about in the Asuryata which predicts the destruction of the Eldar and their remaining gods. Another section states that the battle will destroy both the materium and immaterium."

According to their older lore yes, but probably not according to their most recent lore. The reason they went to sleep in 3rd edition was because there was no sustainable food source for the C'tan. The reason they went to sleep in 5th edition was because after the rebellion against the C'tan the Necrons weren't powerful enough to challenge the Eldar.

Pretty dumb hibernating when your enemies are apparently stronger than you and when they have displayed the ability to detect tomb worlds.

 

[Beaviz81]

I thought it was open-ended.

Lets see the alternatives. The Emperor ascents to become a true god. Imperial victory.

The Emperor dies the warp swallows everything. Chaos victory.

The Nids eats up everything. Tyranid victory.

The Crons fully awake. Necron victory.

The Orks manage to infest everything. Ork victory.

The Dark Eldar manage to kidnap everything. Pyrrhic Dark Eldar victory.

The Eldar all die and summon their god of death (not actually sure if all Dark eldars must die as well). Ehm I think pyrrhic ain't a strong enough word for this kind of victory.

Tau win through superior technology. Tau victory.

 

[Serpion5]

Necrons in the end. Nids may come along and destroy all biological life in the galaxy, but then they head off looking for the next meal. That leaves the last man standing being the Necrons, whether they come together to fight them,or just squabble between themselves while the nids eat lunch.

The necrons would fight. Maybe not all of them, but there are factions among their number who desire a return to life, and for that they need suitable life forms capable of containing their intellect.

Then again, what could a returning primarch do for the Imperium?

Remarkably little in the grand scheme. While many Space Marines would undoubtedly welcome his return, there are factions within the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition who may well take issue with this. Not to mention the High Lords, who may be reluctant to relinquish their seat of power.

@Serpion: I've just scanned through the new Eldar codex now, and I can't find any reference to Y'nnead apart from exactly what was already stated in previous codicies. Any specific references?

No specific references. I don't own the codex so don't have it with me, but that was the impression I got from skimming through the fluff. If I can get a better look, I'll get back to you.

 

[Beaviz81]

The only Primarch that could really change anything is Robute Gulliman if he healed up and even he could end up branded as a heretic and nuked like a dog or daemon.

Lets play with which returned.

Leman Russ: A known rebel, likely marked for extermination.

The Lion: Ehm he would probably have a fatal heart-attack seeing what his sosns had descended into if not he would likely slaughtered his sons for what they had become I hope. If not just exterminate.

Corax: Well he is GW's version of Doug Wilson, he mortgaged his legion's future for results today. Do the IOM need that? I'd say nay. Exterminate.

The Khan: Not as rebellious as Russ, but still would be snuffed out.

Ferrus: Yes he is supposed to be dead, I'm just playing the stupid what if-scenario. Ehm he would spend the rest of his life arguing pointlessly with the AdMech and his legion.

Dorn: Again I'm playing the what if-game even though I think it's stupid and pointless but idiots likes that game. The only one of the Primarches I think could shape the IOM back into shape, unfortunately exterminated faster than you can say the word.

Guilliman: Already mentioned.

Sanguinus: What the fuck am I doing resurrecting him? Well he would be put down for being a clone most likely chaos-influenced. Again I'm just being open-ended.

That Salamander-guy: Well Teal'c as a Primarch. Unfortunately would have as much influence as Teal'c in the Stargate verse.

 

[Lux]

What if Loyal Konrad Curze comes back, who was secretly working for the emperor throughout the horus heresy?

 

[Beaviz81]

Put down as a heretic as he can't be trusted.

 

[Khorne's Fist]

Remarkably little in the grand scheme. While many Space Marines would undoubtedly welcome his return, there are factions within the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition who may well take issue with this. Not to mention the High Lords, who may be reluctant to relinquish their seat of power.

That may be true if he turned up at the gates of Terra, but if he arrived on Macragge or Fenris, and rallied all the SM chapters to his banner, there wouldn't be a whole lot any of the =I=, High Lords or Eccslesiarchy could do about it. I do think most chapters would answer the call of a primarch, whether he was their gene father or not. A million marines would give him a lot of sway.

But that's all dealing in a big IF. I don't think the Imperium will go down without something huge and dramatic happening first, be it the return of a primarch, the failure of the Golden Throne and Astronomicon, or another civil war. Or all three.

 

[Lux]

Well during the heresy horus the Ultramarines were able to create, and sustain a astronomicon of their own. So who is to say what wonders couldn't be created with the return of a primarch?

 

[Tawa]

Well during the heresy horus the Ultramarines were able to create, and sustain a astronomicon of their own. So who is to say what wonders couldn't be created with the return of a primarch?

I'm presuming this is brought up in Unremembered Empire? Just a guess as I haven't got to that one yet

 

[Beaviz81]

The Space Marines today are not united under one banner, and even if they have so many divergent beliefs amongst the UM-traditions alone that I would be surprised if half of them didn't want to kill Guilliman as the diversion of force is both the IOM greatest strength and weakness.

 

[Tawa]

The Space Marines today are not united under one banner

You can say that again!
I'd hate to be the poor Adept given the task of mapping out which Chapters are friends today and who aren't :laugh:

 

[Child-of-the-Emperor]

According to Lexi, Rhana Dandra will end reality and the immaterium so I don't see how it's a victory for Chaos.

"Rhana Dandra is the Eldar name for the final great battle with Chaos. It is written about in the Asuryata which predicts the destruction of the Eldar and their remaining gods. Another section states that the battle will destroy both the materium and immaterium."

Well, we're working with a very vague ancient prophecy, so nothing is certain. The common theme amongst all the descriptions of the Rhana Dandra is that it is some sort of last-stand final battle against the Forces of Chaos. I assume this refers to the 13th Black Crusade, and thus coincides with the Imperium's 'Time of Ending'.

Pretty dumb hibernating when your enemies are apparently stronger than you and when they have displayed the ability to detect tomb worlds.

After the rebellion against the C'tan, the weakened Necrons could not have hoped to stand against the Eldar. So they decided to descend into stasis-sleep, knowing that their civilisation was much more prepared to stand the test of time.

And although several Tomb Worlds have malfunctioned or been destroyed in the sixty-million years since the War in Heaven, the majority seem to be (somewhat) intact - thus vindicating their logic.

Well during the heresy horus the Ultramarines were able to create, and sustain a astronomicon of their own. So who is to say what wonders couldn't be created with the return of a primarch?

They didn't really create one, merely found a way to utilise alien technology.

The Space Marines today are not united under one banner, and even if they have so many divergent beliefs amongst the UM-traditions alone that I would be surprised if half of them didn't want to kill Guilliman as the diversion of force is both the IOM greatest strength and weakness.

Also, a build up of Legion-sized forces under a single individual's command is strictly against the Codex Astartes - the very rigid laws that govern the vast majority of Space Marine Chapters.

 

[Beaviz81]

You can say that again!
I'd hate to be the poor Adept given the task of mapping out which Chapters are friends today and who aren't :laugh:

Thats quite easy, but putting them all under one banner would be the true nightmare my friend. I mean all the Primarches returning at once ain't likely to do that so good luck with one single Priamrch and now I'm opening up for even stupid speculation.