[ArcAngels]

can you still use one in any marine codex army? like before, maybe its a dumb question but i just never saw them say you couldnt do it anymore

 

[wolf.]

i believe its only in a Black Templar army, but im not too sure.

 

[Ordo Xeno Commander]

yea, wolf is right, i beleive, as they are not listed anywhere else.

i used one, but that was against the rules and i liked the model anyway

 

[QuietEarth]

The model is superb. I would just use him as a Commander with a Power Weapon.

 

[Bishop120]

Nope.. unfortunately they have been replaced by the lesser "Company Champions".. All you have to do tho is make sure you model him with a combat shield and you can use him as the new CC role tho.. otherwise Emporers Champion is a Black Templar only thing now..

 

[cccp]

Nope.. unfortunately they have been replaced by the lesser "Company Champions".. All you have to do tho is make sure you model him with a combat shield and you can use him as the new CC role tho.. otherwise Emporers Champion is a Black Templar only thing now..

yep, thats pretty much spot on. i prefer the plastic champion that somes with the command squad box set compared to the metal one, i converted one up out of that.

 

[The Son of Horus]

Which brings us again to Apocalypse. You can use one in Apocalypse regardless of the Chapter... he'd be the Chapter Champion as opposed to the Emperor's Champion (which is touched upon in the Space Marine codex via the Ultramarines Honour Guard entry), but it'd be workable I think.

 

[Bishop120]

Chapter Champion is an upgrade option for a command squad model. Any Codex Space Marine army can have one. I think your refering to the Ultramarines Ancient.. a required if you take the Honor Guard in place of a command squad.

 

[ArcAngels]

after reveiwing the old chapter approved that came out after the release of 4th, it says that an emperors champion can be attached to any space marine army as an HQ that fills a slot unlike the black templars who require one. he doesnt recieve a vow or any other little fancy help outs like the templar, but has a black sword, armour of faith and master crafted bolt pistol. ive checked ahead a couple issues and ive asked a couple buddies at my local 3 GW's and they are saying i can still use him, but its pretty useless cause hes only good for the templar, are you sure?

 

[Red Orc]

Chapter Champion is an upgrade option for a command squad model. Any Codex Space Marine army can have one.

In fact, as cccp_one says, that's a Company Champion (Codex: SM p29): any Codex: SM army can have up to two company champions in a standard FOC army as far as I can see...

I think your refering to the Ultramarines Ancient.. a required if you take the Honor Guard in place of a command squad.

...and Son of Horus is right about the Chapter Champion in the Honour Guard (the Honour Guard equivalent of a company champion - Codex: SM p51). The Ancient you refer to is the Bearer of the Banner of Macragge - the Chapter Banner (the Honour Guard equivalent of a company standard bearer). This is definitely only for the Ultramarines as far as Codex: SM allows, but if Son of Horus reckons it's allowable for other chapters in Apoc, I would suggest believing him.

@ArcAngel, sorry I don't know. Give him a go, if you like the mini - what have you got to lose? At worst, you end up with a really cool mini with a power-sword, fancy armour and a bolt pistol. Use him as a captain, or a sergeant in a vet unit, if the Chapter Champion idea doesn't work out. Alternatively, as Bishop suggested earlier, give him a combat shield and use him as a normal company champ. Sorted, I'd say.

 

[Bishop120]

I meant generically could have one not that they could have only one.

As to the Ultramarines Chapter Champion... yeah I dont know what I was thinking... my mind wasnt working right... probably has to do with never using them in my *shock and awe* Ultramarines army.

As for using him in Apoc.. They are listed specifically for Ultramarines so I would say any pure Codex chapter without traits could use them but if you take traits then no unless there is something in the Apoc book (which I dont have) which states SM players are allowed to take them. Otherwise thats kinda like me (an Ultramarines player) saying that I can use Kayvaan Shrike in my army.

The reason I say any pure dex army rather than pure Ultramarines is Ultramarines are pure dex without traits. Your not benefitting from anything so its more of a fluff wise you have changed your army name but your using the same army. Besides most Chapters are imitations of Ultramarines so why wouldnt they imitate their honor guards as well? Seriously if the Ultramarines have them then they must be in Codex Astartes somewhere.

 

[Red Orc]

Oh yeah, absolutely. If Blood Angels Successor players get Mephiston and Death Company (under different names) I don't see why Ultramarines successors shouldn't be able to use 'Ultramarines specific' units or characters. I'm a firm believer the the point is 'list A' fights 'list B' through the medium of models, which are all proxies anyway (ie, they stand for imaginary soldiers). The colour of those models doesn't alter the legality of the list (you could field Blood Angels in lime green or Dark Angels in pink, as long as the list is legal - likewise, you could have Ultramarines in black or yellow or red and call them the Knights Who Say Ni, as long as the list is legal).

Don't agree that the Ultramarines don't have traits though. Their trait (or is it more like a doctrine?) is 'Follow the Teachings of the Codex' (listed in the centre, yeah?) which, uniquely, allows them to take all units from the main Codex, with no disadvantage.

Also not quite sure (in fact, I'm afraid I know you're wrong) that all Ultramarines units are in the Codex (Astartes). The Tyrannic War Veterans were formed after the Conclave of Hera, in the teeth of traditionalists who argued that such a unit was contrary to the teachings of the Codex, in order to provide veteran units to fight the tyrannids.

On the Apoc rules, I don't have them either, but Son of Horus is generally pretty spot on about this sort of stuff.

And yes, I play Ultramarines too.

 

[Bishop120]

Tyrannic War Veterans are just codex marines with "experience" fighting Tyrannids. I will grant you that after the loss of the Ultramarines (Marneus Calgar in particular) to the Tyrannids at Prandium they realized that the Codex Astartes is not perfect...

Excerpt taken from Chapter Approved Astronomican...

For a week Marneus Calgar went without food or water while meditating on the matter. When he came out of his trance-like state, he told the Ultramarines that they were guilty of the sin of pride. The Codex Astartes was written for the Space Marines, the Space Marines were not created for the Codex Astartes. They would have to adapt and develop new strategies and tactics, even weapons, if they were to be successful against the Tyranid menace. Hit and Run raids were abandoned in place of concentrated defenses and static firepower. This meant that the Ultramarines had to choose a place to defend, and they chose their fortress monastery on Macragge.

Its not so much that Tyrannic War Vets are against the Codex our outside of it.. its just the benefits of experience... if you knew one persons weak spot would you ignore it if for no other reason than out of tradition??


Also if you read "The Qualities of a Space Marine" it specifies that a member of a Codex chapter is expected to have all of the traits in equal measure.. Divergent chapters emphasize one or two of the divergent traits at the expense of other traits. Ergo Codex chapters have no "advantage" or "drawback"

 

[Red Orc]

"...In the past it had been argued that it was contrary to the teachings of the great Codex Astartes for Space Marines to specialse to this degree..." (Codex: SM p50). Definately says 'contrary', which is as good a synonym for 'against' as you're likely to get in English. Yes I think that Space Marines (along with the rest of the Imperium) are extremely traditional and not at all keen to develop military strategy, otherwise they'd invent helicopter gunships for a start.

Yes, a Space Marine is supposed to be wise, dutiful etc, and one who's member of a chapter which "honour(s) the teachings of the Codex" is supposed to be all of them equally - which to me, implies that there's a kind of uber-trait exemplified by "Honour the Teachings of the Codex". If the other chapters have diverged, they must have diverged from something; that 'something' is the 'pure codex' trait (for want of a better word). That's my personal interpretation, I wouldn't tell anyone they were wrong for not seeing it the same way, just how I choose to interpret that passage.

 

[Marneus Calgar]

Just call the Emperors champion a Master or Commander or somthing, paint it blue or whatever your SM army is and voila you have a SM commander with a power weapon :victory:

 

[Jaymason666]

I used the model... took the head off and replaced it with one suiting what i wanted. Serves as my Chapter master now.