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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So as I typically do I was mulling some stuff over in my mind on the way to work and was struck by a random thought on why the Emperor needs to use the Y chromosome to make Marines. Basically it's because of something the gene has: a short leg. My thought is to minimize rejection, failure and catastrophic mutation the geneseed amends that short leg of the Y early in puberty basically making it an artificial X. The body is already geared to read that chromosome for puberty so it just reads the additional instructions on top of the base ones.

Also crossed my mind is that the switch for psykers is likely in the X chromosome since both sexes can be psykers.

Thoughts, or disagreements?
 

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Possible.

I think it would be difficulty to justify the inability to create female space marines, but in the same way that speying a bitch is much more intrusive than castration, perhaps it's simply that they additional physiological stress on top of the already immensely harrowing insertion of the black carapace leads to a sufficiently high failure rate of candidates. The inefficiency has led to an all inclusive ban on the practice to save progenoid glands and time? Maybe this would then justify female space marines for chapters like the Crimson Fists, who are decimated and urgently need recruits no matter the cost?

In relation to the psyker gene; It may be linked to the gender chromosome, but there are a lot of other possible chromosomes that it could be a mutation of, or perhaps all mankind in the 41st millenium is not the same species as now, despite outward appearances? Perhaps the chromosome chains are sufficiently different?
 

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If I'm not mistaken, Space Marines aren't castrated. There's rogue Space Marines that have fled and started families of their own. Their children were healthy, big- but not 'astartes'.
 

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I would love to know where you found that information

I can't remember where I was reading it, but I believe it was specifically about one Chapter hunting astartes that had fled to begin normal lives. If I find it, I'll share it.

But it's slightly less absurd than THEY CUT THEIR PENISES OFF!
 

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Thordis
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I can't remember where I was reading it, but I believe it was specifically about one Chapter hunting astartes that had fled to begin normal lives. If I find it, I'll share it.

But it's slightly less absurd than THEY CUT THEIR PENISES OFF!
I just figured that the transformation into a space marine left the marines infertile
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
The reason I was figuring it was done that way was the need to add extra genetic switches telling the growing body that certain organs needed to be turned on, ect. Plus we know some generic tampering occurs since they end up often sharing traits with their Primarch.
 

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*lets out a long sigh and drags out her soapbox*

Out of everything in the 30/40k universe that people accept without question- all of the deamonic entities, xenos species, psykers with god-like powers, lobotomized human-machine hybrids, perpetuals, Primarchs, etc...

The fact that seems to come up for argument over and over again is that females CAN NOT be astartes.

Let me be clear here, the lore does not leave wiggle room: Astartes are, and can only be, male.

'But, but.. what if *insert whatever lore butchering left-field concept that the arguer has convinced themselves of*...'

No. Just, NO. The lore states directly that the process fails if tried on a female. Not sometimes work in rare cases. Not one in a billion chance. Fails - and fails catastrophically at that. Why does it fail? It fails because the process doesn't work on those who are genetically female.

Why is this so hard of a pill to swallow over all of the strange and bizarre facets of 30/40k? You want boobs on your army, got it... Sisters of Battle are that way :washim:. Yes, I know they need an update. I hope they get a glorious one sometime soon, with enough plastic models and bitz to choke a bloodthirster. The fact that their models are less than stellar right now is no reason to take a chainglave to nearly 30 years of established lore.

*kicks soapbox over*

Now, onto the second topic that has reared its head in this thread. Astartes and procreation.

The Crimson Fist book - Rynn's World touches on this topic. Apparently, one of the older chapter masters (Traegus) had attempted a breeding program with failed aspirants. It is noted in this program that only aspirants that failed early in the process to become astartes were viable for the breeding because after a certain point in the process (if they even survived failure) they were rendered sterile. This breeding program failed so spectacularly that is was not only abandoned but was banned from ever being attempted again.

Now, there are some Chapters that encourage their warriors to live among the people of their home world (Salamanders are a great example of this). These Chapters tend to emphasis protection of humanity and 'living' amongst the human population helps to remind the trans-human astartes of this mentality as it is apparently easy for astartes to 'forget' their humanity and view normal mortals with disdain.

From everything the lore hints at- astartes cannot breed (be that from lack of viability to lack of desire). But, the lore has notable instances of astartes becoming 'attached' to females in a protective sense. This can be seen in a number of storylines- from Ragnar (40k Space Wolves) to Argel Tal (30k Word Bearer). It seems that physical attraction and desire is mostly wiped out from an astartes through the indoctrination process and any lingering traces that remain convert into a fierce desire to 'protect' the female in question- much like a highly trained attack dog 'bonding' to a certain individual.
 
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You didn't actually read the OP, did you?

The OP was about a potential reason why there were no female Space marines, not asking why there could not be any.
Yes, I did read the OP. At the end of their post they opened the floor to 'Thoughts, or disagreements?'. Which is what I put forth.

My post, if you read it closely, was to the thought that of all the odd points of lore in the 30/40k universe that people accept without question- why is it that the 'no female astartes' seems to be a sticking point in people's craws when the lore is very clear on the matter. Basically, I was asking why is it that this bit of established lore seems to be always questioned over others. It is why I prefaced my post with the allusion of the soapbox- meaning I was about to air a personal view on a topic (something that the OP encouraged at the end of their post).

After that I went on to touch on the secondary topic(s) raised in the thread, referencing points of cannon and offering my own personal opinion on it.
 

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Rattlehead
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Cartoon Fiction Illustration Comics Fictional character

There are no female astartes and there never will be and the fluff is absolutely concrete that the made up science doesn't work on the lady people with the boob things. That's as far as it goes; if you introduce real science 40k falls apart at the best of times. The only thing I can think of that's even a vague shot is the Daemonculabula, which was a. a woman with astartes gene seed and b. as far as I know accepted female 'aspirants' as well as male, but what crawled out after 'the process' was usually hard to call a space marine at the best of times. God knows what it'd do to someone that wasn't already an ideal astartes candidate i.e. a woman.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I agree the made up science suffers when real science shows up but it was a way I could see using real science to justify the made up science.

Basically I was bouncing my random brain leavings for the sake of possible discussion.
 

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Yes, I did read the OP. At the end of their post they opened the floor to 'Thoughts, or disagreements?'. Which is what I put forth.
Ah, so you misunderstood the post then, I think.

The post was asking about thoughts or disagreements about the idea of the Y chromosome's "short leg" allowed the Emperor and his fleshsmiths to scribble in some extra instructions (as opposed to a woman's double Xs having no space, apparently. I have little knowledge about genetics and chromosomes).

I don't believe the OP was asking why there weren't any female Space Marines.

Basically, I was asking why is it that this bit of established lore seems to be always questioned over others.
Basically because in a universe of daemons, basically magic, and incredibly advanced medical science that is basically magic, it seems odd that women are singled out of the Space Marine club.

With all that went into the making of the primarchs and space marines, seems odd to cut your recruiting pool in half.

Compared to the rest of the universe, it seems like it requires a reader to suspend their disbelief a bit.

Which I do, but it's still something odd.
 

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Ah, so you misunderstood the post then, I think.

The post was asking about thoughts or disagreements about the idea of the Y chromosome's "short leg" allowed the Emperor and his fleshsmiths to scribble in some extra instructions (as opposed to a woman's double Xs having no space, apparently. I have little knowledge about genetics and chromosomes).

I don't believe the OP was asking why there weren't any female Space Marines.



Basically because in a universe of daemons, basically magic, and incredibly advanced medical science that is basically magic, it seems odd that women are singled out of the Space Marine club.

With all that went into the making of the primarchs and space marines, seems odd to cut your recruiting pool in half.

Compared to the rest of the universe, it seems like it requires a reader to suspend their disbelief a bit.

Which I do, but it's still something odd.
People are just going to have to get over the fact that females are different than males.

Secondly once you're wearing power armor no one is going to be noticing that you have boobs.


Seeing as how boobie armor is extremely stupid and has never been done in history.

The blood angels chest armor thing is a different story altogether.
 

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Ah, so you misunderstood the post then, I think.
No, I understood where the OP was going with their thoughts on the matter- giving a possible modern scientific explanation as to why the astartes process only works on males.

But, this is not modern science. We already know that the Emperor's own male genecode, warpcraft, and all sorts of voodoo was thoroughly tangled up in the creation of the Primarchs and, subsequently, their Legions.

My point was why do we really need a detailed explanation? Why does this particular bit of lore have to be explained above and beyond the already numerous references in the lore that it simply doesn't work on females?

Basically because in a universe of daemons, basically magic, and incredibly advanced medical science that is basically magic, it seems odd that women are singled out of the Space Marine club.

With all that went into the making of the primarchs and space marines, seems odd to cut your recruiting pool in half.

Compared to the rest of the universe, it seems like it requires a reader to suspend their disbelief a bit.

Which I do, but it's still something odd.
If you look at it as a numbers game and in breeding terms, not in a society bound by political correctness, it actually makes logical sense to limit it to males only.

You are looking to create the perfect warrior- strong, highly physical, highly aggressive. Traits that are, as a whole, naturally higher in human males. This is a simple biological fact. Not to mention that adding testosterone to a 'normal' woman to meet the same natural level found in a male causes all sorts of issues biologically.

Because of how human reproduction works, a healthy population can stand to lose more males and still remain viable to recoup the loss suffered in a much shorter time than if it lost the same number of females.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Why over explain lore? Because I think it's fun. I mean I am same person who spent the better part of a day researching the Imperium's rough population to try and work out a realistic number of Sisters of Battle for the setting. Stuff like this is what I do.

And lengthenibg the short leg on the Y just seems like it's have less possible ways to wrong than lengthening the legs on the X beyond what it is. The body could read an X chromosome (even if it was essentially a fake X made to trick the body into running additional instructions) over expecting it to read a gene it's not designed to read. Additionally regular Marines require no voodoo or else they would need psykers or sorcerors to create instead of apothocaries.

One fluff justification I think Insawfor the lack of female Marines is that it's to keep the Marines tied to humanity, to be dependent on them so they could never breed on their own and become completely devoid of their human roots or reject those they protect.

Which is an arguement I like, but I also like my gene one too.
 

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Actually, there is some very specific 'voodoo' required for standard astartes.

It is called geneseed.

They cannot produce more geneseed from scratch, as it requires already mature geneseed to grow more in the body of a new astartes. Much to the dismay of Legions that suffered great losses in the heresy.

No geneseed, no astartes. Geneseed is a direct genetic line back to the first astartes, the Primarchs, and the Emperor's original 'voodoo'.

It might not require a pysker to install it, but it sure was created by one of the greatest psykers to live.
 
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