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Discussion Starter #1
I'm sure this has been discussed in the rumors threads already, but I haven't been as involved as I used to be... you know, with more responsibilities and such.

So It looks like black templars will not be getting their own codex this edition, I guess since their chapter is included in the space marine codex now.

So if this is the case I was pretty sad at first because that's my main and by far my biggest collected army. But now they have access to all of the space marine units and armory at equal cost, and honestly....still seem to have the differences that really mattered, except for maybe not being fearless anymore. Crusader squads still, champion, some good perks.

I guess Templars dont have rage anymore?

Anyway, As sad as I am about them not getting their own glorified hard back 6th edition codex I really cant justify them getting one when I really think about it, at least based on the differences between their last codex and subsequent space marine codex books.

I am about to run out and actually get the codex today, so this is just based off what I saw in the space marine rumors thread (after the codex was released).

Anyway who thinks its good or bad for Templars to get this change?
 

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The change to use the normal Space Marine codex for Black Templars makes total sense from a GW persepctive. We get one less codex to be updated. Templars get all the nice new toys and still have their own rules.

There will be the requirment to change some unit configurations for certain players but this is just par for the course when it comes to GW codex upates.

Personally BT included in the new C:SM is a good thing.
 

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What was lost was individuality and potential. The chance to move out from under the SM tab on the GW site exactly like DA and BA did previously. New Templar specific units and a wealth of new rules and fluff. What they got was bastardized fluff to try and justify the roll, Chapter Traits that can be ignored (challenges), and a $115 book cover. They lost a lot of players with that move.

Everybody has their own opinion of course. Always check with the players first. And then for comparison, ask the DA, BA, and SW players if they want their books rolled.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
What was lost was individuality and potential. The chance to move out from under the SM tab on the GW site exactly like DA and BA did previously. New Templar specific units and a wealth of new rules and fluff. What they got was bastardized fluff to try and justify the roll, Chapter Traits that can be ignored (challenges), and a $115 book cover. They lost a lot of players with that move.

Everybody has their own opinion of course. Always check with the players first. And then for comparison, ask the DA, BA, and SW players if they want their books rolled.
Yeah part of me definitely feels this way. I guess im not too upset because I don't know what was actually lost, like you said with the potential. Can't miss what you never had. and I guess seeing they got to keep some individuality even though they are in the space marine codex made me say, well that's a relief, thy aren't totally gone...heh.

But now that you mention it, I do remember being really excited about some of the earlier Templar rumors. I mean hell, I had myself convinced that the whole army would have the zealot special rule. And there could definitely be some sweet units that are specific only to Templars. The most unique unit we ever had besides the champion were the useless sword brethren. Well useless in 5th and 6th anyway.

Never thought I'd be on this side of the fence while playing a marine army.
 

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What was lost was individuality and potential.
Even though the new codex includes two choices that are exclusive to Black Templars and any space marine force that wants to use their rules.

Last I recall they weren't really going that far with the Templars beyond them having large numbers.

The chance to move out from under the SM tab on the GW site exactly like DA and BA did previously.
Yes well I'm sure the other first founding chapters and any of the traitor legions would like that as well, it was never gonna happen that fast if at all.

New Templar specific units and a wealth of new rules and fluff.
Like what? They are/were knightly zealot marines who operate, by and large, on a greater scale than most other chapters. What could you add that isn't already available in the normal codex?

Chapter Traits that can be ignored (challenges), and a $115 book cover. They lost a lot of players with that move.
So are you trying to say that the vows from the Black Templar codex were shit? Cause thats what those chapter traits are, accept any challenge and abhor the witch.

I guess im not too upset because I don't know what was actually lost,
In the end not much, especially in regards to units since a simple name swap gets them back. (Vanguard veterans = sword brethren, captain = castellan; my gods that was difficult..)

As far as fluff might be concerned, I'm sure the Iron Hands, White Scars, and Raven Guard have a bit less and their all first foundings.

Can't miss what you never had.
No but some people can complain and whinge to levels that emulate Stella.

and I guess seeing they got to keep some individuality even though they are in the space marine codex made me say, well that's a relief, thy aren't totally gone...heh.
They aren't the squats, they aren't going away anytime soon.
 
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We could have had this conversation about BA or DA back in the day. "What should they get that Marines dont already have?" And you would have had your answer when their books dropped. You punch into work at GW headquarters, you brainstorm some Crusade-style units, model them, make rules, playtest, print and mold. Rinse and repeat for the next army. Im sure they do have some units cooked up already, they just decided "Hey thats weird, nobody plays this nine year old army in the ultra competetive 40K scene. Lets roll em up rather than give them a proper update".

As for the Vows/Chapter Traits......

Abhor the Witch: Army wide 5+ Deny the Witch and consolidation move after setup towards enemy pskyer. A popular choice for footslogging armies to get blobs and LRCs into charge range faster. Combined with Zeal made them insanely good at crossing the table with minimal casualties.

Accept Any Challenge: Following 6th Ed FAQ, army wide Rage (changed from Hatred). Made a Chaplain in melee squads practically mandatory, but as Chaplains were on par with MCs having an extra attack from the blob AND rerolling was more than worth it.

Chapter Traits: Rerolling misses and Rending in challenges ONLY. Adamantine Will. Crusader. So the only thing actually carried over from 4th Ed Vows is the Adamantine Will. Crusader is decent but pales in comparison to a mandatory 9" Zeal towards any unit with the inclusion of a Chaplain and 3 Servitors. The new AAC can be ignored by not accepting a challenge. Abhor the Witch lost the consolidation move. C:SM Chapter Traits are NOT the 4th Ed Vows for future reference.

I could do a cut and paste of what was actually lost but I think Ive nailed enough already. Welcome to GW; they Catachan your army and you move on. I play Nids now and I love em. I have no expectations for another book. There will be a bunch of bugs running around the table, theyll get new bugs, neckbeards will keep passing down superior Comic Book Guy opinions from on high, hobby shops will still stink, and GW will continue to rake in dough. And all is well in Warhammer land.
 

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Templars got better overall. I really don't see why people keep talking down army-wide Crusader. I've seen many a game won and lost on whether or not a unit makes a long enough Run to score or contest an objective.
Yes, they've lost a few unique items (eg the Holy Hand Grenade) but they get access to the new Relics which range from decent to very scary and Grav weapons. As a Dark Angels player, I can tell you right now I'd be very happy to get that stuff.

Crusader squads are very nice. Uniquely in the Codex, Templars can field an entire force in AV14 transports if they want with Dedicated LRCs, killing some army builds stone dead right there (Missilespam Tau, I'm looking at you) and have Troops infantry squads with Power Fists on a basic trooper that can't be challenged out. Neophytes add the ability to get plenty of extra S4 melee attacks in for an absolute pittance in points.

They also get three, or 2.5 if you want to split hairs with the Champion, special characters, more than anyone bar the Ultramarines.

Sure, you _can_ play them as a vanilla force with a few of the new toys, but the classic crusading Marine horde is still something they do better than anyone else.
 

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We could have had this conversation about BA or DA back in the day.
But we're not having a conversation about them, we're having one about the Templars so either stop deflecting and get on with it or stop fucking whining for a change.

You punch into work at GW headquarters, you brainstorm some Crusade-style units, model them, make rules, playtest, print and mold.
Unfortunately there are far fewer things you could come up with than your acting like there are. The reason behind Templars having access to fewer heavy weapon toting squads was the need for mobility, something that they still most assuredly retained.

Im sure they do have some units cooked up already, they just decided "Hey thats weird, nobody plays this nine year old army in the ultra competetive 40K scene. Lets roll em up rather than give them a proper update".
Yeah because beyond three or four units and two or three rules the Black Templars were so much more different than the vanilla 'dex to the point where they must have their own codex.

Its not like Space Wolves with their power armour wearing scouts, or veteran squad that breaks up to lead normal squads, or veterans in scout armour, or heavy weapon toting devestators, or dreadnought HQ, or apothecary chaplain.

Or the Blood Angels with their fast vehicles, or alternate predator, or troop assault marines, or veteran assault veterans, or death company, or librarian dreadnoughts, or death company dreadnoughts.

Or the Dark Angels with their deathwing leader to make terminators troops, or ravenwing leader to do the same, or elite terminators or bikers, or bike squads that can include a land speeder, or land speeder variant, or different flyers.

Your totally right, it would be so much easier to roll any or all of those into the regular 'dex rather than the one that actually makes sense..


I could do a cut and paste of what was actually lost but I think Ive nailed enough already.
Personally no, not even close but keep telling yourself that.
 

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I'd personally feel a little miffed that my army was stuffed into another dex and made to share. Just adding a couple of rules and using the same army list doesn't convey the character of the army fully, in my opinion. Black Templars deserved better.
 

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It would't surprise me if the Black Templars got a supplement book.

Before people call me crazy, Farsight is in the tau book, and he got a supplement and the Chaos dex which is basically a Black legion Dex, got a Black Legion supplement

From what we have seen GW seems to be against adding units to supplements, they don't have to do this now, and are free to add a couple of special rules to the templars to make them extra unique whilst still giving them all the new marine toys.

This way they could add a couple of extra special rules to the crusaders and give you a nice new warlord table.

Templars still have all their unique units and their unique characters but gain a tonne of new gear so I wouldn't complain if I played templar
 

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Sorry, but the amount of whining I am hearing from Black Templar players is starting to drive me crazy...
I think GW did a great job of incorporating them into the SM Codex; There are a lot of potential ways to run a range of fluffy BT lists whilst them still being competitive.

What it boils down to is 40k has been moving towards being more shooting based for along time, and now into 6th edition we have a much more realistic sci-fi setting where shooting is king (who is going to charge into combat with a chainsword if they can just shoot them in the face?). BT have had to be tweaked to reflect this, as have all of the close combat armies. Deal with it and if you want a fluffy army that is still competitive, be creative...Use Drop Pods (Templars use drop pods in their Crusades, so it's totally fluffy) to support your maxed out Crusader Squads, if you want to play the assault wave style. Because now you get them for a fair price like everyone else.
And you know, the Chapter Tactics are pretty good in getting you to play Templars to their fluff: Rending and re-rolls in challenges is going to be very useful against Chaos (who also have to challenge) and negates the need for splashing for power weapons, so you save points...Fleet is going to get you across the board quicker, so stop whining about how it's impossible to get your Crusader Squads into combat without being shot to pieces (Or you know, buy a couple Land Raider Crusaders, since you invented them. And you can take Grimaldus and use his 6" bubble (Like Straken and blob Guard) to give Hatred to a fuck tonne of Crusaders...Then there is the Emperors Champion, who is overpowered for his points cost.
And as for the "Waaaghh! We can't take Librarians and don;t get anything in compensation!" complaint...Who the fuck cares? They don't have Divination anymore anyway, which I always thought was the best power (Telepathy can do horrendously awesome things though...but you need luck on the rolls, unlike Prescience which is the Divination Primaris)...And with all the other characters at your disposal it aint a big loss.

Did Templar fans really expect a close combat army in a shooty edition? How would that work then (whilst maintaining balance)?
 

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But we're not having a conversation about them, we're having one about the Templars so either stop deflecting and get on with it or stop fucking whining for a change.


Unfortunately there are far fewer things you could come up with than your acting like there are. The reason behind Templars having access to fewer heavy weapon toting squads was the need for mobility, something that they still most assuredly retained.


Yeah because beyond three or four units and two or three rules the Black Templars were so much more different than the vanilla 'dex to the point where they must have their own codex.

Its not like Space Wolves with their power armour wearing scouts, or veteran squad that breaks up to lead normal squads, or veterans in scout armour, or heavy weapon toting devestators, or dreadnought HQ, or apothecary chaplain.

Or the Blood Angels with their fast vehicles, or alternate predator, or troop assault marines, or veteran assault veterans, or death company, or librarian dreadnoughts, or death company dreadnoughts.

Or the Dark Angels with their deathwing leader to make terminators troops, or ravenwing leader to do the same, or elite terminators or bikers, or bike squads that can include a land speeder, or land speeder variant, or different flyers.

Your totally right, it would be so much easier to roll any or all of those into the regular 'dex rather than the one that actually makes sense..



Personally no, not even close but keep telling yourself that.
I honestly hope youre a much better moderator than you are a debator. You keep getting snotty with me and trying to skirt the basics of what Im saying. Next time Ill draw a picture in crayon so you can grasp it. DA and BA had just as much to set them apart from Vanilla as the Templars did. GW came up with a basic concept and published it. And just like DA and BA, they sat under the SM tab on the website. Only difference is, BA and DA got updates to set them apart from Vanilla after 4th and BT didnt. You honestly cant comprehend that?!? New book, fluff, rules, units. You take the core concept and expand on it. I provided prime examples of the exact same situation. You dont like it, go move the thread or ban me or delete this post or whatever it is you do with your spare time. Ill still be playing 40K and posting on my regular sites. Anyways, Tervigon number two needs a wash so have fun with the reply bub.
 

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have fun with the reply bub.
Will most certainly try, thanks!:eek:k:

But first...

I honestly hope youre a much better moderator than you are a debator.
Oof! Ouch! You claim I'm getting snotty with you and come back at me with shit like this?

Next time Ill draw a picture in crayon so you can grasp it.
And this?

Seriously, rather than act like an adult you spout off that nonsense? Come on now.

DA and BA had just as much to set them apart from Vanilla as the Templars did.
I had the older codecies for BA and DA and while I do believe your more spot on about the DA in this case, I distinctly recall the Blood Angels as having quite a few things setting them apart from the get-go. Namely units like the Baal predator and death company, in addition to a jump pack command squad (which I believe they still remain the only marine army to have access to.)


You honestly cant comprehend that?!?
Clearly I can, can you comprehend that your most definitely blowing your 'losses' way out of proportion?

You dont like it,
No I don't like you whinging about the Templars essentially being shit on when they definitely have not. Your quick to go on and on and on about what you don't have or the little things you lost, but lets not forget that you have more than other marine armies.

How about the Iron Hands? They don't deserve any characters or unique units? How long did the Templars have any form of spot-light before the White Scars, Salamanders, Raven Guard, Crimson Fists, or Imperial Fists got anything?


And thats another thing, of all the chapters that can be represented in the game outright its the sons of Dorn who have it best. Not only do the Imperial Fists have their own chapter tactics and character, but so do their two most well known successor chapters. How many other chapters got that?

Oh thats right, fuck all; not even the Ultramarines have another successor chapter represented with their own characters or rules outside of forgeworld.

go move the thread or ban me or delete this post or whatever it is you do with your spare time.
Well this thread definitely doesn't seem to need or warrant moving, you haven't done anything to warrant getting yourself banned, and it'd look really petty of anyone on the staff to delete a post they do not like simply because someone has the gall/balls to not agree with them.
 

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Or the Blood Angels with their fast vehicles, or alternate predator, or troop assault marines, or veteran assault veterans, or death company, or librarian dreadnoughts, or death company dreadnoughts.
You forgot hand flamers/infernus pistols, for starters. Inquisitor, :security:

As a whole though, I get why it's annoying (hell if they had done that to BA, I'd have been on the warpath), but I don't think it's really a significant worsening of your army. I do hope you guys get a supplement (as should a few other chapters), but this complaining is getting annoying.
 

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It was always going to be Black Templars getting folded into the mainstream codex. They don't have the longevity or uniqueness the others have.

Their theme was being fleet based crusaders with a penchant for close combat. They had a knightly asthetic. Those are all things it's really easy to represent with the main Space Marine codex. You simply pick appropriate units from the army list. As Darkreever said a simple name change is what separates a Templars unit from a mainstream one.

Their main mechanical differences; vows, crusader squads and the emperor's champion are all still present. So really what have the templars lost? There was never really much more that could be done with their theme honestly.

Blood Angels, and more easily Dark Angels, could also probably be folded into the main codex. They have the advantage of longevity however, being around since 2nd edition with the same theme and fluff since then.

As a Templars player my army is going to be essentially unchanged. In fact i've actually got more options now.
 

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And thats another thing, of all the chapters that can be represented in the game outright its the sons of Dorn who have it best. Not only do the Imperial Fists have their own chapter tactics and character, but so do their two most well known successor chapters. How many other chapters got that?
Thats because Rogal Dorn is the best primarch. And with 2 famous off spring as it were he must have the biggest progenoids of all the primarchs :laugh:
 

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Hang on is all this about the templars getting their own tag on the website?

Heck I'd like it if my blood ravens had a unique tag, or my word bearers or my sons. But is is not a big deal.

Templar still have all their unique stuff so stop whinging that you have lost it, you haven't, yeah your chaplains are now standard rather than buffed up and your army doesn't run in random directions in the shooting phase but thats it. And you gained tonnes, sternguard and centurions, stalkers and more FA choices
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Now that a couple of you have mentioned it, a supplement book does seem like a pretty real possibility. I will say that I have heard this as a strong possibility from a few sources, but Im not really one to post rumor type threads.

Anyway just so we're clear I am pretty surprised about Templars being in the main marine codex, but I'm not complaining about it really. I pretty much agree with what what Rems said 100%
 

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I'm amazed you are still arguing this point. You argued it in the SM rumours thread when it was revealed you were being merged and now you are still arguing it.

You still get your characters, your crusader squads, and LR as dedicated transports. Many of the things that made your BT unique, you still get to keep. Plus you get the added bonus that before your future was in doubt regarding updates, now because you have bee rolled in while keeping many aspects of previous while getting access to all the contents of the SM codex.

Now I'm an Iron Hands player, our old Index Astartes stated we didn't have Chaplains but Iron Fathers, we had TDA for our sergeants, Venerable Dreadnought HQs. Now we get none of that, heck we don't even have our character. So when you sit there and moan pisses me off, your shitty chapter offshoot that was nothing more than a fad get more than my first founding chapter.

Your chapter still lives, with most of its flavour intact, add to that your future is secured and access to new marine stuff.
 
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