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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
If this has been brought up time and time again (as i would imagine it must have done when 5th ed first hit) feel free to point me to some old threads and ill just read the responses there.

Does anyone defend this USR in terms of good design, fairness or fluff? In terms of mechanics it just seems like a one off, cheesy special rule where someone says: "oh btw i have an extra save that i can use against most stuff you throw at me!". The thing that does irk me though is that what i like about 40k is that you only get one saving throw, whether it be cover, armour or invulnerable. By adding FNP it seems to go counter to the entire system of streamlining.

I played my first proper game in absolutely ages yesterday, last time i was playing 2nd ed. I was against a blood angels drop pod army, and whilst i did eventually win, it seemed super cheesy that everyone got FNP due to sanguinary priests.

What is the downside to fielding so many FNP units? They don't seem particularly expensive and are independent, so really their worth/point ratio seems extremely scalable (unlike if they limited FNP to just a squad with a high point cost). I found that the only good counter to his whole god damn FNP army was the demolisher cannon which did precisely that.
 

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most units that have FNP have some sort of handicap. Death Company have rage and get expensive quickly, Plague Mariens have lower Inisative and also cost a fiar bit. and Command squad you have to take the whole unit and agian they get expensive quickly.

I think it is logical. Think of it as someone who has so much Adrenaline in there blood they don't feel pain like the people now a days who can entire a Taser shock and then contiue to fight. All the saves are there for are "you bullet bounced of my helmet/Tree trunk/ Force field", the actual bullet may not kill him, just with an "compramised nervus system" you might not notice your missing a chunk of arm etc.
 

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I assume that by toughness roll, you mean the to wound roll, but the purpose of feel no pain is to represent that a wound that would incapacitate, but not kill, is ignored. Without feel no pain, a model would be wounded enough to be incapacitated enough to not be able to fight, but not necessarily die. those with the rule need to be killed by the wound.

If you look at history, there are many examples of soldiers being incapacitated by a wound, but later returning to active combat duty, this is why apothecaries and medics in 40k confer fnp, they repair the injury enough to return the model to duty.
 

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FNP units tend to be expensive... i know my bro uses orks, and he never takes more than one unit with a pain boy, because i focus on that while also having to deal with around 40 ork boys. FNP units take a LOT of hits, but are only good with really tough units. like nobz
 

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I'll take a stab at defending Feel No Pain...

Cheesiness is in the eye of the beholder. Often time, what seems cheesy to one person seems like a sound tactical decision by another. But I'm sure that not much comfort if your getting hammered (which I know you didn't!)

I for one play Death Guard, who uses FNP on all of their Plague Marines. While they are tough and have some nifty bonuses, they are rather expensive, slow, can't use heavy weapons, and certainly not invincible. And there are ways to get around FNP. Demolisher cannons being a good example. Power weapons and plasma guns are two more. So you just have to keep those things in the back of your mind. Every new codex or rule book changes the meta-game some, and we all just have to adapt. But that doesn't necessarily mean that they (PM and/or FNP) are perfectly balanced. GW is not well known for well-rounded, balanced rules. (At least, not in my view anyway.)

I for one, can't stand the "No Retreat Rule." Sure, it makes some logical sense, but sometimes being able to re-roll failed moral seems better, and that doesn't sit well with me. (Please, lets not argue to merits of re-rolled moral vs. fearless.) But I do my best to accept it, adapt, and move on. Maybe not the best example, but I hope it help illustrates what I'm getting at.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
For example a sanguinary priest is 50 points (same as painboy), and can join any unit. In a 10man squad he gives a fairly decent save at a staggeringly low +5p per model. I don't really see how this can be justified because it isn't a particularly high cost for something that powerful.

Fluff wise, ok i will concede it makes sense; but it still doesn't feel like it fits into the rule set particularly well - especially with most (yes i realise there are others) USRs conferring passive bonuses.
 

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well with the mad dok grotsnik u can give 30 ork boys feel no pain which is 340 points probably one of the most exepensive combinations in the ork codex.
 

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This sounds more like an "I don't like this rule" thread instead of a rules question. Maybe it should be in 40K General?
 

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well with the mad dok grotsnik u can give 30 ork boys feel no pain which is 340 points probably one of the most exepensive combinations in the ork codex.
375 when you factor in the obligatory power klaw, but so so worth it as a low-point death star unit. I even fielded it in 'ard boyz to great success with cybork bodies to bring the cost to 525. It's so worth it though, 30 boyz with FNP and 4+ cover are obscenely difficult to destroy (and I can almost always finagle them cover by stringing them out or putting them behind Kans.) The only good place to kill them is in assault, which is right where they want to be.

But nob biker mobs run upwards of 750 points if you count the warboss, so this is actually the cheapest death star unit in the codex.
 

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The downfall of Feel no Pain is when the squad gets hit by an AP1/AP2/S8/Power/Rending/Instant Death attack. Then you just spent around 50% more per model (for Plague Marines) for a unit that doesn't even benefit from its special rule.

If you think FnP is cheezy/overpowered then you are either Trollin' or you don't know how to deal with it properly. FnP units are expensive and die just like anything else from powerful shots or Power Weapons.
Possible exception is BA Sang Priests. For 50 pts those guys seem a little too good. On the other hand, only 1 wound for an IC means you can beat them to death in CC fairly easily, one PW hit/wound will do it. Plus they chew up an Elites slot.
 

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Oddly enough, when you look at the average Plague Marine versus the average Space Marine, the PM costs 7 more points, loses an Initiative and the ability to carry a heavy weapon but gains a Toughness, FNP, Defensive Grenades, the combination of Bolter/Pistol/CCW on all models, not just the sergeant/champion, and the ability to take a second special weapon while under 10 men. Do you mean to tell me that 5 points per model (when figured against a 10 man squad) is unbalanced, even when you translate that over to Plague Marines and all of the sudden they get all that other stuff for 2 points per model? There are plenty more abusive things to complain about in this game, I think FNP is pretty far down on the list.
 

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It should be a 5+, but otherwise I don't mind it too much. The only thing that really annoys me is every second unit getting it. I'm all for streamlining, but the USRs are just getting handed out willy nilly.
 

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Every second unit? The only ones in CSM that have it are Plague Marines and Typhus, the Daemons have their Nurgle models (but loldaemons), and Space Wolves don't have a single unit with it (unless i went blind).
 

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Hang on, hang on. The original poster (hi!) was mainly asking about Feel no Pain as granted by 50 point sanguinary priests to everything in a bubble around them (they also grant furious charge, and since you were looking at them in terms of price against effect that's quite relevant).
There are two important points:
1) Yep, deny FNP. Couple of normal ways to do it.
2) Deny FNP by killing the priest. He's got one wound and is an IC, meaning you can pick him out in close combat.

Sorry - I've forgotten the point of your thread again :p.
The question you asked was about the appropriateness of FNP as well as it's efficacy.
Imagine the priest, with impassioned prayers and roaring threats, encouraging and enraging his squad of religious fanatics to greater deeds of glory. Equally, as they take wounds, imagine him crying out, "Brother! This mortal shell is not enough! Have faith, and fight on!"

Okay, he'd probably shorten that sentence to "grar!" and have the same effect because all the marines were fired up by his presence and earlier ranting. But yeah, I imagine it easily.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
The point of the thread was to discuss whether FNP really fit in with the game of 40k, in terms of existing rules or the general flow of the game. I argued that it seemed cheap in terms of both concept and points, and it kind of stuck out like a thorn in my side.

Now of course this has been interpreted to mean: "whaaaa whaaa whaaaa" but then again the consensus seems to be that everyone else is completely ok and fine with it.
 
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