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Discussion Starter #1
Had a situation in a game the other day where a squad with a flamer was shooting from the ground to the battlements of a Fortress of Redemption.

The guy with the flamer was in the second rank behind three other guys so had the target have been on the same level the guys in front would have been under the flamer template.

Looking back however I am wondering if, given it is firing at a higher level if I couldn't have hit the guys on the top of the Fortress with the flamer.

Page 52
" ... the rest of the template covers as many models in the target unit as possible, without touching any other friendly models (including other models from the firing model's unit). Any models fully or partially under the template are hit."

Page 101
"Template weapons (such as flamers) can only hit models under the template on a single level."

Given none of your own guys on your level can be hit that would mean they aren't "touched" by the template?
 

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Your asking if it was possible to shoot a different level? Not quite sure what you are asking, I be dumb.
 

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I would say u could shoot at another level however RAW I would say no because the template till touches the models wether it hits them or not , I think this would have to be something u would discuss with your opponent should the topic come up
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
Your asking if it was possible to shoot a different level? Not quite sure what you are asking, I be dumb.
Can you shoot from the back of the squad over the heads of the blokes in front of you who are underneath the enemy on level 1
 

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Since it is a different level and the template only hits that level I don't see why not. None of the squad was under the template at the higher level right?
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Since it is a different level and the template only hits that level I don't see why not. None of the squad was under the template at the higher level right?
No all friendlies were downstairs
 

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I agree with scscofield. Since none of your troops were on the level being targeted then you were not hitting any and the template placement would be legal.
 

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Page 101
"Template weapons (such as flamers) can only hit models under the template on a single level."
This was taken out of context. This pertains to Ruins, not fortifications. There is no mention of 'levels of shooting' in the Battlements section, only mentions that "battlements do not have firing points and use the normal rules for LoS". The only mention of template weapons in the section of rules that you're talking about is the paragraph that covers shooting at units inside battlements on pg.104.

I would certainly say that the flame template must be placed so that it is not touching any friendly models as that is what "normal rules for LoS" mean for flame templates if I'm not mistaken.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
The "normal shooting" thing is more about how the occupants shoot rather than the guys outside shooting in.

Battlements are a separate location to the building below so must be considered as a separate target, unless your suggesting that a flamer can attack both the building below and the guys on the battlement at the same time.
 

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Nope, I'm saying the flames have to go around the heads and shoulders of your squad mates. Just takes a moment more in the positioning of your models in the movement phase really. And if not that line from Battlements then the next, which states that when being shot at it's normal for them aside from potential cover saves from walls at the top. Really, it just comes down to move the models so you get a clear shot. There's nothing in the rules for Battlements that changes the way you shoot at the unit on them aside from the Battlements themselves potentially providing cover saves, so normal rules apply.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
But "normal rules" is that everything under the template gets hit. So the building underneath would have to be hit as well if your ignoring the notion of the template being fired at a higher level.

That would also mean that if the lower building isn't occupied you can't shoot the flamer at all.
 

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It also says that the template cannot touch friendly models, so RAW no matter what level you are on the template still touches the models, otherwise surely it would say if the template hits the models. As for the battlements thing you still have to declare you are shouting at the battlements as you would if you were shooing at a fortifications normally, as you have to declare the section of the building that you are shooting at
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Yeh the meaning of "touched" seems to be the key to it all.
 

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As for the battlements thing you still have to declare you are shouting at the battlements as you would if you were shooing at a fortifications normally, as you have to declare the section of the building that you are shooting at
Getting towards with Battlements, the embarked unit and the unit on top are separate and need to be targeted as such. Not that they are on different levels.

Yeh the meaning of "touched" seems to be the key to it all.
As well, for a lot of molestation charges.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Getting towards with Battlements, the embarked unit and the unit on top are separate and need to be targeted as such. Not that they are on different levels.
But that is still suggesting that the lower building is hit along with the battlements.
 

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No, it just means you pick one and shoot at it with the limitations for embarked units as written. The wording could be better, for sure. Just seems a little over complicated any other way as you're borrowing rules from other sections to help create your point.
 

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For buildings it's simple. Buildings count as immobile transport vehicles with a few exceptions (Pg.92, BRB), one of which is the building can have battlements. This can allow the normally impossible scenario of an infantry unit being deployed directly on top of a still functioning vehicle. As has been previously explained, the "firing-upon-different-levels" rules apply only to ruins. So you just place your template over the building, but touching the firer and not touching any of your own models. You resolve the hit against the unit on the battlements, as well as a hit against the building, just like a vehicle that has a unit on top of it - which is essentially what it is. In addition, any unit within the building suffers D6 hits as well as per the rules on pg. 94, under Template Weapons.

There is one slightly vexing problem, best solved with a house-rule. When firing on different levels on a ruin, template weapons have a special method of gauging which models are hit by levitating the template over the building and looking straight down, as presented on pg. 100. This is in contradiction to the normal rules on pg. 52, where you have to... "place the template so that its narrow end is touching the base of the firing model..." Since these conventions are "multi-level ruins" (Pg. 100) only, technically when firing at battlements, you have to place the template weapon so that it touches the firers base and then stretches diagonally up to cover the models on the battlement. Assuming you went with this, there are two ways to determine how many models are hit; you can look through the template from directly above, or from where the template's profile is largest - this latter option would put you line of sight perpendicular to the plane of the template. Both of these options are lame, and would seriously hamper any template's ability to clear the upper battlements, though it can certainly be argued that this makes sense. Personally, I would just house-rule it so you use the conventions for multi-level ruins when it comes to gauging how many are hit with template weapons, not including the choose-a-level-to-fire-at.

Concerning the question as to whether you can fire over your allies' heads with your flamer, I think it's a flat out no. The rules for placing it are "...and the rest of the template covers as many models in the target unit as possible, without touching any other friendly models... Against vehicles, the template must be placed to cover as much of the vehicle as possible without touhing a friendly model.(Pg.52, BRB)" Unless you want to interpret "touch" as literally the template not being in contact with the models, you can't place it so the template's over your own guys. Assuming you DID interpret touch literally, the following sentence "Any models fully or partially under the template are hit." would mean your guys would also take hits. As you are not allowed, at least under Blast and Large Blast rules on page. 33, to purposely place your template so friendlies are under it, I think there's no way for you to fire over the heads of your unit's models with a flamer.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
You're not allowed to attack an unoccupied building tho'. A battlement is a separate building to the building below.
 

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Hmm... looking at the rules more closely, I see that you would not, in fact, resolve a hit against the building below, as you're not attacking the unoccupied building below, you are attacking the "battlements" building. On pg. 95 it says "A building with battlements is a multiple part building..." which is treated as a separate building for shooting and close combat. So you would resolve a hit against the Battlements building, and apply damage results. Battlements just have special rules allowing you to target it's embarked crew. If you had a unit "embarked" on the battlements of a building, but no one inside the "adjacent" building, then hits are resolved against the battlements as well as the embarked. If the battlements suffered a Total Collapse result, you would have to perform an emergency disembark, though the building below would be fine. If there were no ladders on the outside, you would have to Leap, as you my not embark into the building below, you have to disembark.
 
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