[Trihnicus]

I've been running a list of a Battlewagon sitting in the backfield with KFF Mek and Lootas.

2 Full Squads of Slugga Boys footslogging it up the middle

A trukk outfitted with Meganobz blitzing A Flank to either wreck a vehicle or tie up a good portion of his first and maybe second shooting phase.

2 squads of 6 warbikers that race up the sides behind cover possibly boosting and flank anything that comes out of Rhinos or the Rhinos themselves with twinlinked Str 5 shots.

A warboss in with the meganobz.

His list includes 3 Rhinos, a Vindicator, a Landraider Crusader, marines to fill up everything that transports troops, his vow thingy/champion and a marshall which he recently modded to lightning claws. as well as a varying number of Assault marines or regular Termies.



We've played about 12 games? I've lost once in a game with a goofy list.

He's getting frustated and I'd like to hear from some SM players particularly Black Templars as he refuses to switch to a codex Marine chapter how these games might be a little less..... onesided.

I doubt my list is going to evolve due to money so how would the templars go about stompin me?

 

[AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH]

Check this out: http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?p=758271#post758271

Waffles has some good points so show it to your friend.

 

[Alpha Legionnaire]

I've been running a list of a Battlewagon sitting in the backfield with KFF Mek and Lootas.

This is really good, but should be no match for a lrc full of angry dudes, perhaps he could run a drop-podded footsquad for the purposes of wiping out the battle wagon, then roll in and laugh off your gunfire? The battlewagon poses a HUGE threat to the templar army, but it has ways of being destroyed, off the top of my head, here's a few:
Command squad, five guys, two meltas, drop pod:130
dreadnought, multimelta, drop pod:145
las/plas five man squad, drop pod: 131
Outflanking sword brethren, powerfist/srg, melta gun:125

Any of these choices should really be able to put a huge dent in that beastly tank and allow the other forces to cross the board without that big countercharge.

2 Full Squads of Slugga Boys footslogging it up the middle

A big squad of templar should reliably get rid of these guys with indignant sweeps, what point games are you guys playing at? It's hard to give advice without solid numbers.

But if I had to guess I'd say these guys are a valid threat, but throw 10 initiates/10 neophytes(pfist/melta/frag:305) with a chaplain leading them(three servitors, bolt pistol:127) should nuetralize them, since he can somewhat decide where charges go with his righteous zeal manuevers.

A trukk outfitted with Meganobz blitzing A Flank to either wreck a vehicle or tie up a good portion of his first and maybe second shooting phase.

He brings assault termies right? How is he not killing these guys? Is he just being swamped way early in the game because of his rhinos? Hell his marshall alone should kill two of them before they move.

2 squads of 6 warbikers that race up the sides behind cover possibly boosting and flank anything that comes out of Rhinos or the Rhinos themselves with twinlinked Str 5 shots.

These guys are still 1wound models with t5 and no FnP, they're like nob bikers light, any dedicated shooting should remove them, but failing that, just eff tons of bolter fire should riddle them to pieces.

A warboss in with the meganobz.

I don't see enough generic bosses, maybe later in the collection you could get ghazghull? He's really quite good.

His list includes 3 Rhinos, a Vindicator, a Landraider Crusader, marines to fill up everything that transports troops, his vow thingy/champion and a marshall which he recently modded to lightning claws. as well as a varying number of Assault marines or regular Termies.

Ah here we go, the meat.
I've never really agreed too much with rhinos, you're tossing ten attacks from neophytes away to get a car which doesn't help your righteous zeal. Plus they're abysmally expensive in that codex. That being said rhinospam templar DO get them safer to where they need to go, but against many lists I don't see it being effective.
His LRC is great, put termies in it with the champ and you've got furiously charging guys who can ace ICs with ease.
That or make it a scoring LRC by having a bunch of generic infantry being led by a leader.
Marshall's are an odd duck. They improve every models LD to 10 as long as he's alive, but he isn't nearly as good at leading them into battle as a chaplain(Plus he's not as combatty as the chaplain), perhaps instead of the three rhinos, take one big squad on foot with a chaplain, as described earlier? They'll pulp the twenty man squad and it takes full advantage of righteous zeal. By taking out the marshall you can add in another full squad of marines/neophytes, and another chaplain. This seems to be more advantageous as he'll be LD:Fearless on the walkers and LD:10 anyway on the terminators.

Remind him to purchase Power Of The Machine Spirit and dozer blade on his vindicator, one is a 30ish point upgrade to make it fire until the gun falls off, the other is five points to say "no" to Dangerous terrain.

Also, a loltastic option is taking dozer blades on LRC.

He's getting frustated and I'd like to hear from some SM players particularly Black Templars as he refuses to switch to a codex Marine chapter how these games might be a little less..... onesided.

I doubt my list is going to evolve due to money so how would the templars go about stompin me?

In order to compensate for all that you bring he needs to take more models. His razorbackspam isn't point effective enough to use and while the rhinos get the templar there, you're really taking the big squads to hide hqs and have everyone(including neophytes) reroll on the charge.
Maybe he could take a dreadnought, it's firepower would ace some of the orc choices while it rerolls attacks in CC?
Hopefully this was helpful.

 

[Trihnicus]

This is really good, but should be no match for a lrc full of angry dudes

It's not.... It's a hard counter to his Rhinos which inevitably begin blowing up on turn 1 and then shooty Infantry after his transport options are gone. The Nobz can close with the Land Raider as quickly as turn 1 if he goes first and decides to move or turn 2 if he hangs back.

He brings assault termies right? How is he not killing these guys? Is he just being swamped way early in the game because of his rhinos? Hell his marshall alone should kill two of them before they move.

The Assault termies have to come outside of the LRC to be meaningful to my nobz if they aren't the LRC is going to get blown to pieces if they ARE then they are a dead ringer for both my warbikers and my Nobz as a large investment in what have been 1500 point games. almost invariably getting assaulted first as I have wider mobility factoring the nobz in the truck or the warbikers as neccesary.

Also... the Meganobz ALWAYS die but that is their point they are scary as hell and in your face and in the 2 turns it usually takes them to finally bite it I've hopfully put a fat fist in his LRC or Vindicator but even if they haven't I have 4 more powerfists and a Deffrolla lying around typically having advanced halfway up the board untouched.

These guys are still 1wound models with t5 and no FnP, they're like nob bikers light, any dedicated shooting should remove them, but failing that, just eff tons of bolter fire should riddle them to pieces.

Dedicated shooting from Bolt pistol marines? Just like the Termies the combat effective range of the Warbikers is greater than that of the shooty marines. at 150 points they are mostly diversionary after all if your marines can shoot at my bikers than my Lootas can shoot at your Marines. whatever you can fire from a Rhino doesn't impress me with permanent cover saves. Also I get far more shots with stronger weaponry outside of the 12" rapid fire range of the marines. Move and ignore your heavy weapons or sit still and let ORKS outshoot you around the 18-24" range can't remember off the top of my head.


I don't see enough generic bosses, maybe later in the collection you could get ghazghull? He's really quite good.

My list is not likely to change anytime soon but I thank you for the advice.

Ah here we go, the meat.
I've never really agreed too much with rhinos, you're tossing ten attacks from neophytes away to get a car which doesn't help your righteous zeal. Plus they're abysmally expensive in that codex. That being said rhinospam templar DO get them safer to where they need to go, but against many lists I don't see it being effective.
His LRC is great, put termies in it with the champ and you've got furiously charging guys who can ace ICs with ease.
That or make it a scoring LRC by having a bunch of generic infantry being led by a leader.
Marshall's are an odd duck. They improve every models LD to 10 as long as he's alive, but he isn't nearly as good at leading them into battle as a chaplain(Plus he's not as combatty as the chaplain), perhaps instead of the three rhinos, take one big squad on foot with a chaplain, as described earlier? They'll pulp the twenty man squad and it takes full advantage of righteous zeal. By taking out the marshall you can add in another full squad of marines/neophytes, and another chaplain. This seems to be more advantageous as he'll be LD:Fearless on the walkers and LD:10 anyway on the terminators.

Remind him to purchase Power Of The Machine Spirit and dozer blade on his vindicator, one is a 30ish point upgrade to make it fire until the gun falls off, the other is five points to say "no" to Dangerous terrain.

Also, a loltastic option is taking dozer blades on LRC.



In order to compensate for all that you bring he needs to take more models. His razorbackspam isn't point effective enough to use and while the rhinos get the templar there, you're really taking the big squads to hide hqs and have everyone(including neophytes) reroll on the charge.
Maybe he could take a dreadnought, it's firepower would ace some of the orc choices while it rerolls attacks in CC?
Hopefully this was helpful.

That was all remarkably helpful actually although I'm pretty sure he was implementing the Dozer and POTMS upgrades already

It's mentioned in one of my quotes but these have been 1500 point games. IE his LRC his Vindi and maybe about 20-30 marines? he pops a Dreadnaught fairly reliably but it pops pretty fast either to my Nobz or to the Lootas.

and no 30 marines in 3 squads with a handful of neophytes to go around doesn't intimidate 60 boys that arrive after 3-4 turns of everything blowing itself up on the warbikers mega nobz and the occasional interjection from the Lootas frequently untouched or with the barest of casualties from the Vindicator before I Iced it.

 

[Culler]

Templar land raider-based armies really mess up Orks, especially if those Orks don't have a lot of kans or dreads. All we can do to them is strength 9 PK from nobs or 10 from warboss.

Charging out of at least one of these land raiders should be a terminator assault squad, all with lightning claws and furious charge. That means each model has 4 power attacks at I5 and S5 that reroll both to hit and to wound. 8 of these guys will kill pretty much anything that's not a vehicle. Even if Orks charge them they're going to reap a heavy toll in casualties before the Orks get to strike (average of 13.5 power wounds against T4, enough to kill almost 7 meganobz.)

If he couples some crusader squads and assault terminators all in land raiders and adds in some predator destructors with lascannons and/or dreads or vindicators, he should be highly competitive against your Ork list. I know I would have a helluva time dealing with a list like that.

 

[Alpha Legionnaire]

It's not.... It's a hard counter to his Rhinos which inevitably begin blowing up on turn 1 and then shooty Infantry after his transport options are gone. The Nobz can close with the Land Raider as quickly as turn 1 if he goes first and decides to move or turn 2 if he hangs back.

This is why templar should not be in rhinos, no payoff. I can never run them successfully and as such I have no idea what to advise.

The Assault termies have to come outside of the LRC to be meaningful to my nobz if they aren't the LRC is going to get blown to pieces if they ARE then they are a dead ringer for both my warbikers and my Nobz as a large investment in what have been 1500 point games. almost invariably getting assaulted first as I have wider mobility factoring the nobz in the truck or the warbikers as neccesary.

How are you blowing his land raider to pieces? This is a very important thing to find out as he's sunk so many points into it. What are his terminators chasing down? He knows he can gun forward 12" in the lrc deploy the back of his base up to 2" away, then assault six, correct? He should have the better part of 21 inches of assault reach, that's half the goddamn board up.

At the end I think it factors into if the wagon explodes or not, if it does, he outranges you and will get the assault, and those BT termies are mean. Maybe he could switch to a greater quantity of thunder hammers, the 4++ invul is nice and the hammer means ID to any nob touched.

Also... the Meganobz ALWAYS die but that is their point they are scary as hell and in your face and in the 2 turns it usually takes them to finally bite it I've hopfully put a fat fist in his LRC or Vindicator but even if they haven't I have 4 more powerfists and a Deffrolla lying around typically having advanced halfway up the board untouched.

If his problem is simply tactics and not listbuilding tell him to wait a turn or advance slowly, nothing your army puts out at range can wreck his LRC and he can easily stay out of the way of most things save the wagon. If you advance all the way up and he pops the battlewagon, it's not a fight I see you winning. His vindicator, if deployed correctly, should not be taking fire from the lootas, and should shit all over the meganobs. Maybe he could try taking a land speeder with mm? It's sixty five points to wreck the wagon, then gun down the nobs inside.


Dedicated shooting from Bolt pistol marines? Just like the Termies the combat effective range of the Warbikers is greater than that of the shooty marines. at 150 points they are mostly diversionary after all if your marines can shoot at my bikers than my Lootas can shoot at your Marines. whatever you can fire from a Rhino doesn't impress me with permanent cover saves. Also I get far more shots with stronger weaponry outside of the 12" rapid fire range of the marines. Move and ignore your heavy weapons or sit still and let ORKS outshoot you around the 18-24" range can't remember off the top of my head.

I meant dedicated shooting in general, but from bolt pistol marines he's still tossing 10 shots at bs4 and 10 shots at bs 3, so 12 hits, 4 wounds, two die, and if he has a melta(which he should) he should be acing them easier. Warbikers outrange and are more mobile then templar, but if you shoot a templar squad with that chaplain they can rage after you faster then you can move away. And in assault those warbikers are a speed bump. The problem is, imho is the rhinos, they steal his ablatives and give him not enough meat to hit you with.

And lootas can't do dick to an LRC it'll roll all over them, and if it gets close to disgorge his assault terminators, he can still fire it's guns at the lootas, provided he didn't soar too far. The LRC puts out an astonishing rate of fire, at most it'll chug out 12tl bolter shots, 4tl asscan shots, and a mm shot. So ten bolter hits, five wounds, 4 asscan hits, four wounds, and hypothetical melta maybe hit, but definite wound. Rolling statistical it's between nine and ten wounds on an average squad, all of them negating ork armor save(Though cover is always a pain). In short, if he can bust up your deffrolla he'll walk all over you with it.



and no 30 marines in 3 squads with a handful of neophytes to go around doesn't intimidate 60 boys that arrive after 3-4 turns of everything blowing itself up on the warbikers mega nobz and the occasional interjection from the Lootas frequently untouched or with the barest of casualties from the Vindicator before I Iced it.

His marines should intimidate you as with the righteous zeal, he can essentially declare exactly where he wants to assault, with a chaplain, he can nominate a unit behind him or to the side and 'jump' out of the range of the ork mobs advancing at him. If combine that with 20 marines swinging at sixty orks you get somewhere in the ballpark of: (Basic mathematics on this one, disregarding special/heavy weapons)
80 swings rerolling, 60 hits, 30 wounds, which means far too many dead orks(25 dead orks), especially with his chaplain swinging(4-3-2). Might not seem severe to lose that many orks, but now he's either destroyed an entire squad or brought two to the brink of leadership saves, and now you're wounding him on fives.
Furthering that math would be the pistol shots leading up to assault, you shooting him the previous turn, blahblahblah.

His list seems decent but I think his rhinos are definitely holding back some potential. He should be more mobile when taking casualties and far superior in combat.

 

[Trihnicus]

His list seems decent but I think his rhinos are definitely holding back some potential. He should be more mobile when taking casualties and far superior in combat.

This makes sense to me.

He knows he can gun forward 12" in the lrc deploy the back of his base up to 2" away, then assault six, correct? He should have the better part of 21 inches of assault reach, that's half the goddamn board up.

I can gun 18-19 base up to 2" run up to d6 on turn two and then assault 6. That's if we aren't moving which I might get to do out of my open topped transport possibly factoring another 6".

he outranges you and will get the assault

This is just simply not true. If the Meganobz Footslog then yes the Assault Termies would have the advantage but a Trukk is a Fast Open Topped Vehicle. I'm not worried about it getting blown up because that can potentially give me up to another 18-19 inches of added mobility and almost irrelevant chance at wounds.

And lootas can't do dick to an LRC it'll roll all over them

I'm really either counting on the 20 Str 9 attacks or 5 STR 10 in that trukk bullet I mentioned to pop the LRC or having enough Klaws or my Deff Rolla around after all is said and done to finish the brute off. It's impossible for me to win a game without having at least one weapon left that can Ace the LRC. (ignoring any potential threat from kiting) The Lootas are mostly trying to neutralize any other meaningful opposition. IF I can just pop the one multi Melta with all those attacks I can effectively ignore the whole investment in points while I hunt down the other squads.

Wordness..