Warhammer 40k Forum and Wargaming Forums banner

1 - 15 of 15 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,602 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
At first when i started tau i thought that stealth suits would almost certainly be a feature in my army, but then when i relised they don't start in escaltion it seems like they would suffer greatly because of this. In my gaming circle we play escaltion 50/50 rolling before the start of the game. This is mainly because a few of us do tourneys like the gt where half the time you will be playing escalation.

so my question is, in an environment where you have a 50% chance of escalation are stealths a viable option?
 

·
Porn King!!!
Joined
·
8,137 Posts
They can be. Don't forget that they Deep Strike so it isn't as large of a problem getting into range. They can't assault jump when they do though so keep that in mind.

Personally, I don't use stealths simply because they do the same job as firewarriors. I prefer crisis suits in every case.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,602 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
thats kinda what i was starting to think, however they could be kinda useful vs nids eldar etc....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
138 Posts
When there was no terrain, i used to rely on them. Stealth Suits could walk across the table, while Crisis Suits had to sit behing your one terrain piece waiting to get rhino-rushed out.

The more terrain, the less you need Stealth Suits, although a small squad of them is still very useful.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
37 Posts
usually i would always use stealth suits because people i play tend to forget about them, they are much more afraid of my Crisis commanders or my Hammerhead. as for escalation, i think a Crisis team would serve you better because Stealth suits rely on distance to keep them safe while a Crisis team can soak up a decent amount of damage before they become dysfunctional. Always infiltrate Stealth suits instead of Deepstrike
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
111 Posts
Yeah I used to love my stealth suits till I figured out 3 crisis suits with BC and MP (+MT's of course) throw out exactly the same firepower but with 6 of the 15 shots at S7 rather than 5.... and of course at a longer range. Playing a lot of mech eldar with nigh on invulnerable falcons it became a no-brainer really and the crisis suits are just so more versatile whilst doing exactly what the stealths do....

IMO crisis suits make stealths redundant which is a shame really. The truth is GW should follow logical tactical doctrinal thinking and put a butt load of heavy weapons on Stealth platform (rail gun on a stealth suit broadside anyone...? lol) that would make sense and everyone would use them :smoking:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
129 Posts
The way I use my stealthsuits is more in a defensive role than offensive. It should still work if they start off the table. Basicly, they're what you use to block the one movement lane that your railguns can't cover. Take a squad of three, give one a Fusion Blaster and run them up into or behind a piece of terrain about halfway up the board. If your opponent moves to avoid the railguns, then you can jump out, blast the tank, and jump back from danger. Granted, Fusion blasters are short ranged, but with a bit of luck, they won't be able to shoot back at all, and if they do they have about a 50% chance of not hitting anyways. Now, in escalation it may take a bit to get them into place, but they do move 12 inches a turn and can Deep Strike. So yes, if they are used properly, they are worth it.
 

·
Executive Nitpicker
Joined
·
8,276 Posts
Burst cannons, always and only. Stealths are for anti-troop. If you want something to break tanks, equip a team of Helios style crisis battlesuits. Markerlights slow them down and marker drones cost a fortune.

If you're not packing drones then always take 6 suits. The units are fragile so they need to travel en masse.

If you want to maximize their dakka potential, consider giving all of them drone controllers and one or two regular gun drones. The drones gain the benefit of the stealth field, and they add a lot of expendable bodies.

Just be careful, a big mega-unit can be expensive and hard to hide. I recommend 'stealth swarms' only for huge games, or in smaller 'mini-swarms' of three suits and six drones
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
129 Posts
Galahad, have you never heard of JSJ, aka Jump Shoot Jump? Stealth teams aren't fragile if the enemy can't shoot them. Then again, maybe you are right, and it was bad idea for me to blow up that Land Raider with a stealth team as I described above. I guess that couldn't have happened, right?

And no, you do not need a 6 man team. Something that size is too big to hide behind cover effectively. A three man squad is enough to act as a deterrent to infantry moving through, and putting a Fusion Blaster on one makes for a great tank killing/deterring unit. Hell, it makes for a great character hunting unit. As long as that librarian/sorcerer/whatever is the closest model, it's toast. Stealths are great at jumping out of buildings or from behind hills and toasting the enemy. It works better if you don't touch them, or even look at them for a turn or two, the enemy just forgets they are there.

Seriously, you guys here need to think outside the box a little bit, you'd be surprised what the different units are capable of.
 

·
Executive Nitpicker
Joined
·
8,276 Posts
Wow...aggressive much? Seriously, calm down.

I'm not saying a meltagun on an infiltrating unit isn't handy, I'm just saying it goes completely against the strengths of the *rest* of the unit. The unit is geared up to break infantry units. One meltagun doesn't make you a tank-hunter squad. You have a BS of 3 (or 4 if you shell out more points in an already expensive unit), so you only get one shot that, at best, is 50/50. Granted, if you can get within 6" and the shot actually hits, it;s very likely to penetrate...but that doesn't mean it's a guaranteed kill.

You're essentially paying 132 points for a BS4 meltagun that can infiltrate. The burst cannons are completely wasted against most tanks.

Or you could pay 103 points for two crisis suits with twin-linked BS4 meltaguns that can deep strike. Or for 124 you can have two meltaguns and two plasma rifles at BS3. What's the better choice for killing tanks?

You *can* use stealths for anti-tank, but in most cases it's a waste. Better, and more efficient, in my opinion, to play to their strengths in anti-troop rather than ignoring that and focusing on a one-shot 50/50 weapon.

And yes, compared to crisis suits, or even run of the mill space marines, Stealths are fragile. J/S/J is handy and a very powerful ability, but it is not the end-all-be-all of tactics. You can't gamble on your enemy deciding to park his tanks within 6" of a nice obscuring piece of terrain you can jump out of.

I don't know about anyone else, but I like to advance my tanks near a squad capable of providing a counter-charge threat. You try and jump out of cover and break my Baals and my Assault Squad follows you home and beats the crap out of you on my turn.

The biggest problem with the fusion blaster is it forces you to get too close to the enemy. A unit armed with burst cannons can blow the holy hell out of an infantry unit and jump back, safely out of move+charge range for all but the fastest units. A unit weighted down with a meltagun has to make a choice: Do I waste the meltagun this turn, or do I waste the burst cannons? You turn a great anti-infantry squad into an adequate anti-infantry squad with adequate anti-tank capabilities. It's no longer really good at anything, but merely not bad at a couple of things.

As I said, it's not impossible to kill armor with stealths, and an infiltrating melta-equipped unit is handy, but you're much, much better off specializing your units and having the army support itself.

Tau already have tons of anti-tank, from Crisis suits to Broadsides to piranha to Hammerheads. You don;t need to force a tankbuster into an anti-troop squad just to cover your bases.

Use the stealths to thin-down any troop-based counter-chargers while your crisis suits or Piranha jump in to blow the tank.

That's my opinion based on my experiences with my tau army.

Your mileage may vary, but most tau players will agree that tank hunting is not what stealths are best at.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
129 Posts
Ok, you do have good points there Galahad. However, versatility is better than than having nothing but focused units, in my playstyle and opinion. A stealth team with a fusion blaster and Targetting Arrays costs 122 points and can change targets with ease. As I said before, they're more of a deterrent than a real tank killer. I'd also go so far as to say that 6 Burst Cannon shots at BS4 is better than 9 at BS3, while keeping the capability for tank busting. It's true that I have plenty of tank killers already (6 Missiles Pods, 1 Ion Cannon, 4 Railguns) but it doesn't hurt having one more around.

I guess all of that is to say, yeah, it's common wisdom that you should only use units one way, the widely accepted way of donig things. The majority of people use them for taking out infantry, and that's fine. But you really shouldn't rule out alternate uses, especially when they work. As I said, versatility is key. Being able to use a unit for two purposes is far better than having only infantry killers and a tank presents itself.

By the way, I'd happily sacrifice a stealth team to drop a Baal Predator.
 

·
Executive Nitpicker
Joined
·
8,276 Posts
To me, versatility comes primarily from the list itself rather than the units. Your army should support its units rather than relying on each unit to be able to take all comers. This is especially true for Tau. If you plan and deploy correctly, supporting units should be easily at hand for when that tank rolls between your stealths and that infantry squad.

That's not to say it's a bad thing to have a few 'just in case' options, but not if it detracts too heavily from the unit's purpose.

For example: Throwing a powerfist into a tactical squad is fine (if you have the points) because you're not giving up your lascannon or plasma gun to get it, so the squad still does its primary purpose of being a fire team just as well, but now if a tank or IC gets too close they can send sarge up to swat it down.

Basically it boils down to this: You can have a strong, versatile list full of units that are good at what they do, and, in concert, perform well against most threats... Or you can have a list that is full of versatile units that are okay at a lot of things but not great at anything in particular.

If it were just a matter of points then yeah, extra punch against tanks is nice. But taking away from a unit's strength to give it a so-so ability in another area just doesn't sound like a good trade to me.
 

·
Porn King!!!
Joined
·
8,137 Posts
To me, versatility comes primarily from the list itself rather than the units. Your army should support its units rather than relying on each unit to be able to take all comers. This is especially true for Tau. If you plan and deploy correctly, supporting units should be easily at hand for when that tank rolls between your stealths and that infantry squad.

That's not to say it's a bad thing to have a few 'just in case' options, but not if it detracts too heavily from the unit's purpose.

For example: Throwing a powerfist into a tactical squad is fine (if you have the points) because you're not giving up your lascannon or plasma gun to get it, so the squad still does its primary purpose of being a fire team just as well, but now if a tank or IC gets too close they can send sarge up to swat it down.

Basically it boils down to this: You can have a strong, versatile list full of units that are good at what they do, and, in concert, perform well against most threats... Or you can have a list that is full of versatile units that are okay at a lot of things but not great at anything in particular.

If it were just a matter of points then yeah, extra punch against tanks is nice. But taking away from a unit's strength to give it a so-so ability in another area just doesn't sound like a good trade to me.

I have to agree with Gal here. I have been playing Tau for a couple years now and I have found that gearing your units to perform specific tasks and then using those units to support each other by performing said tasks is ALWAYS a better plan than what you are saying about versatility. When it comes to Tau the old expression 'jack of all trades, master of none' heavily applies because of the fact that Tau can't afford to mix'n'match their units usually. If you have the points, sure, throw that melta in the Stealth team. But you are far better off using those points to ensure that a unit with a purpose can handle that purpose even more efficiently.

There is another Tau player in my area who plays a list with versatility in mind and the crisis suits in the army are arrayed with different weapons to handle different situations and do you know what happens 9 of 10 times? She loses, usually horribly, and she does so not because she is a bad player (she's not) but because her army is not focused and cannot do any particular thing well.

Versatility is great but make sure that you do it with units that can support it and armies that work well with it. Tau, in my experience at least, don't and fare far better when each unit in the army is geared towards performing a single task. Stealth = anti infantry, crisis = anti infantry and light tank popping, fire warriors = anti infantry and markerlighting (with drones), etc.

My $0.02 anyway.
 
1 - 15 of 15 Posts
Top