Tau Rapid Fire

Ordo, you after my job? :grin:


BGB, Pg 29, Rapid Fire Weapons

"Any infantry model armed with a Rapid Fire weapon can shoot twice at targets up to 12" away"

The key word here is can. The model can shoot twice, not must. That is the rule right there in plain English and does not say you must shoot twice in any way, shape, or form. The summary does not, and never will, override or expand on the written rule. The fact is that the rule says you can shoot twice which means that you can choose not to. If you couldn't, the rule would say you must shoot twice.

A good example of this is the chaos dreadnought entry on pg40 of the new chaos codex under the Blood Rage rule where it says very plainly that it "must move as far as possible towards the nearest enemy". Must move, not can, meaning their is no choice to be made.

So again, the fact that a Rapid Fire weapon 'can' fire twice on the move up to 12" does not mean it must.

Can meaning they can decided to shoot and can decide not to shoot. No where does it say they can decide to shoot one shot instead of two. It only says can shoot twice. And again as I said before reading the summary does not contradict the main rule it only removes the ability to interpret diffrently.

We all know the developers intend a lot of things but they way the word it comes out diffrently which is where people interpret to their advantage. There are many examples of this. What is needed in the absence of a clear FAQ is for people to try and get at what the developers intended. This is where RAW and RAI come into play. Let me give you a few examples.

RAW Necrons do not recieve WBB against Str 8 but do recieve WBB against Str 9 as the wording on WBB says "against weapons which are twice their strength". (Necron Codex rule for WBB)

RAW even Tzentch Sorcerors are not allowed to use any other psychic abilities if they wish to use the power of their Force weapon. (BGB rule for Force Weapons)

RAW any model which "carries" a rapid fire weapon and shoots a pistol in the shooting phase cannot assualt. (BGB rule for Rapid Fire weapons)

Now there are many other examples but these are the ones that RAW clearly contradict the rules as intended. This is where people like us rules lawyers are supposed to try to come together and determine what was the intent of the developers. In the case of the Necrons its clear that they did not wish Necrons to recieve WBB against Str 9/10 attacks. In the case of Tzentch sorcerors its clear (to most at least) that they were intended to be able use both a psychic power and their force weapon. In the case models carrying bolters and bolt pistols its clear (for most people again) that they intended them to be able to shoot the pistol and still be able to assualt.

Now as to why I say its clear that they wished for a model with Rapid Fire to always shoot twice at less than 12" I am going to try and present that the developers intended for models to never hold back.

Example 1.) Attacks in HtH.. per the rules on page 40.. "Each engaged model attacks with the number of Attacks on his characteristics profile. In addition, the following bonus attacks apply." Whereby they list Charge bonus and the 2 Weapon bonus. Its clear by that statement that models are meant to always attack with their full complement of attacks.

Example 2.) Models charging... Last sentence of the first paragraph on page 37. "Charging units must attempt to engage as many opposing models as possible with as many of their models that can reach the fight - no holding back!" The last comment by the developers there shows another clear intent.

Example 3.) The second to last paragraph on page 26. Im not posting the paragraph here but it shows intent that the developers wanted weapons to shoot their full compliment of shots and not less.

Example 4.) If you re-worded the statement with the word "must" instead of the word "can" it would mean that marines, fire warriors, IG, and any other model with a rapid fire gun would be forced to fire their guns and would never be able to charge.

Now if you were to take the 2 rules (summary and rules section) and go with the idea that the developers did not write them to be contradictory then the outcome is clear that they intended for rapid fire weapons to always shoot twice if possible and for people to not hold back.

Let me state it like this...

Lets reword the statement.

An infantry model armed with a rapid fire weapon must shoot twice at targets up to 12" away.

This is what you say the developers would have written if 2 shots is the only option. But that statement now reads that the models are forced to shoot whether they want to or not. He must shoot. No room for options here. Marines and most of the units in the game would now no longer be able to assualt.

Now as to your interpretations of can and the option of 1 shot. Your read that "You can fire twice... you can fire once". Well where does it state in the rest of the rapid fire rules that twice is the max number of shots for a rapid fire weapon??? If you are allowed to change the number of shots for Rapid Fire to a lower number (in which case I would say the weapon isnt shooting very rapidly)why not go higher?

If you argue that you can change the wording to suit your need that:

An infantry model armed with a rapid fire weapon can shoot once at targets up to 12" away.

I say I should be able to change its wording to say:

An infantry model armed with a rapid fire weapon can shoot thrice at targets up to 12" away.

Why not?? You change it to suit your needs and I'll change it to suit my needs. But now we have the summary sheet which states "Fire twice at upto 12" or remain stationary and fire once up to maximum weapon range." Thereby any who says rapid fire can be anything other than 2 shots is violating a rule.

A year ago when GW had their official forums, Pete Haines had a whole thread of rules clarifications that were official and was the reason this never made it into the official FAQ. One week from now will be the one year anniversary for when they closed their official forums and since then this rule has been repeatedly questioned by people I guarentee you it will be in the new FAQ which is currently being written and should be posted within the next month or so. Now you can believe me or not but when it comes out there will be no questioning that rapid fire will only allow 2 shots at 12" or less if on the move.

As to asking at a tourney well you dont have to ask.. the GT FAQ stated it clearly just as I stated it. 2 shots at any targets less than 12" unless it remained still.

http://www.fantasybattles.com/forums/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=62

They may have stated that these were only official for Games Day but the precedent that 2 shots at less than 12" was listed as "per the rapid fire rule". You can try to ignore it but when it does come out officially it will just hurt you that much worse. Might as well accept that that is how they intended the rule to be played. Now nothing stops you from makeing house rules and playing that way with your friends. To the contrary developers love for people to make house rules and play by them so that they enjoy the game more if thats what it takes. And I say all the merrier if thats how you and your friends like playing the game. But the heart of the matter is if you go into a tournament thinking you will be able to play with the 1 shot on the move rule you will prolly loose points for poor gamemanship.

Words_of_Truth said:

Your basicly saying it doesn't state how many times a rapid fire weapon can fire, it says "You can fire twice" it doesn't say "you can fire more than once"

It states "Twice" not thrice or anymore. Its a common rule everyone knows that rapid fire one shot weapons can only fire double its been known for ages.

Rapid fire weapons- If you move you can fire twice. I can't see where you can try and interpretate that, so you can fire more than twice.

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If you can interpret it so that you can fire anything other than twice as people are trying to do so that they can fire once, then it can be interpretted to fire more than twice.

As your last statement said... Rapid Fire weapons - If you move you can fire twice. Not once. Twice.

The Pete Haines FAQ was on the official Games Workshop forums that closed down one year ago (Nov 15 to be exact). As Pete Haines had FAQed a bunch of things on the forums it was deemed not necessary to put them in the Erratta FAQ that was posted out Oct 2006, a full month prior to them even deciding to shut down the forums. Among the things posted on that forum FAQ were; Daemonhunters using the new rules for Teleport Homers, Thunderhammers, Assualt Cannons, Land Raider Crusaders, and a lot of shooting in general rules which did include that a Rapid Fire weapon (plasma guns in particular) always fired their maximum possible number of shots. No holding back. Now I pose the question to you.. why would they state it in that FAQ if they didnt think that is the way its supposed to be? Why would they state it in the summary sheet if thats not the way its supposed to be?? Why would it be in the GT Tournament FAQ if thats not the way its supposed to be???

NewHeretic said:

I believe that the idea that a rapid-fire weapon (like a Plasma Gun) 'must' be fired its maximum number of times at up to 12" comes from an old, and now retired, FAQ by Pete Haines that used to be posted on the US Games Workshop website. He specifically stated that the Plasma Gunner, and all models, must fire their weapons the maximum number of times allowed if the player chose to have them fire at all. He justified that decision by saying that in the heat of battle a soldier with a machine gun couldn't slow down their rate of fire...

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There is such a thing as 'Fire Discipline' and making every shot count.

Just because your weapon can fire on fully-automatic doesn't mean you have to.

And, yes, actually, a machine-gunner could slow down his rate of fire.

Short.

Controlled.

Bursts.

Squeeze trigger. Release. Pause. Repeat.

Prolonged fire on full-auto can damage the weapon.

As for the soundness of the tactic of not firing all shots... I dunno.

But the word 'can' makes me think that I don't have to fire twice, it means I can fire twice, meaning I could also only fire once, if I choose to.