[jeep3rs]

No, this isn't the usual question about SoA and ASF. I know that it works with great weapons.

However,

If my opponent uses an ability that gives my Swordmasters the always strikes last special rule (in this case that Ogre mammoth thing), it and Speed of Asuryan would cancel eachother out, right?

If this is the case, would I strike last due to having a great weapon?

Thanks!

 

[effigy22]

Depends on the wording of the rule that gives always strikes last. If it read "replaces always strikes first with" or "always strikes last even if *enter vague rule*" then you always strike last.

However if it reads "models gain the always strike last rule" then all that happens is they cancel eachother out and you strike at intiative order.
did that make sense? Hope so.

 

[DivineEdge]

I assume you mean the Thundertusk's Aura of Frost? That will give white lions and swordmasters ASL.


Speed of Asuryan gives ASF regardless of what weapon the model has. But not form any source. The ASF from SoA and the ASL from the Thundertusk cancel out, leaving ASL from the great weapons. Having said that, I say they are ASL. Does my explanation make sense?

 

[effigy22]

Divine, not quite, ASF and ASL do not stack like extra attack rule. So you can suffer ASF and ASL from 3 different sources and as long as not one of them say "replace ASF with" then all they do is cancel eachother out and you strike at initiative order.

I see where your coming from though.

 

[Mr. Black Orc]

Straight on the point Effigy.

 

[Ardecay]

how does that make sense?

The SoA gives Asf regardless the weapon type.
than the Asl aura negates the Asf.
You mean they still strike on I even tho they have great weapons?

is there a FAQ or Errata that has been written about this that we can refer to?

 

[effigy22]

BRB FAQ:
Page 66 – Special Rules, What Special Rules Does It Have.
Change “[...]the effects of multiple special rules[...]” to
“[...]the effects of different special rules[...]”Add “However,
unless otherwise stated, a model gains no additional benefit
from having the same special rule multiple times.” to the end of
the first paragraph.

The only special rules rules that stack are the "Extra Attack" and "Fight in Additional Rank" special rules (which is apart of the same FAQ).

 

[Hasnat]

I assume you mean the Thundertusk's Aura of Frost? That will give white lions and swordmasters ASL.


Speed of Asuryan gives ASF regardless of what weapon the model has. But not form any source. The ASF from SoA and the ASL from the Thundertusk cancel out, leaving ASL from the great weapons. Having said that, I say they are ASL. Does my explanation make sense?

I agree with your logic. ASF + ASL (Great Weapon) + ASL (Aura of Frost) = ASL

 

[effigy22]

But unless the the rule specifically states it replaces another rule, all they do is cancel each other out.

A good example of this is corpse carts and zombie. If you were to caste time warp on zombies they strike at iniative order. But because the corpse cart rule states "replaces always strikes last with always strike first" they actually gain the benefit.

Unfortunately logic doesn't always win.

 

[Magpie_Oz]

I agree with your logic. ASF + ASL (Great Weapon) + ASL (Aura of Frost) = ASL

The problem is that

ASL + ASL = ASL not 2ASL

So ASL + ASL + ASF = ASL + ASF = 0

 

[Ardecay]

So therefore we simply forget the fact that they wield a GW???
that is the part that does not make sense.
In my opinion the ASL aura negates the SoA, so wielding a GW makes them strike last.
I am assuming you guys think that as the SoA gives them ASF (no matter what weapon type) they will keep negating the fact that a GW is used?

Not sure if that makes sense to me...

 

[Dave T Hobbit]

The problem is that

ASL + ASL = ASL not 2ASL

So ASL + ASL + ASF = ASL + ASF = 0

That depends on the order the rules are applied:

(ASL + ASL) + ASF = ASL + ASF = 0

(ASL + ASF) + ASL = 0 + ASL = ASL

 

[Tim/Steve]

Indeed, the SMs don't have 2 lots of ASL... they never get ASL from their great weapons because while they may lose the ASF from the Speed of Asuryan they don't lose that rule.

But that makes no difference anyway.
EVEN if they did have ASL from their great weapons as well as the thundertusk it makes no matter because they would still have ASF and the rules clearly say that if you have both rules you strike at initiative order.
Its not a matter of the first ASL cancelling with the ASF leaving 1 case of ASL. They have ASL, they have ASF (multiple instances of these rules don't stack as only Extra Attack does that) and so they cancel leaving nothing.



EDIT- maths fail there Dave... brackets make no difference with addition. The only way to look at this matematically would be something like this:

aASL + bASF = 0 where a and b are any non zero positive integers ... which is beginning to get silly.

The best real world equivalent to this would be lunch: if I have both a loaf bread and a pack of ham then I can make a sandwich. Doesn't matter how many loaves of bread or packs of ham I have because the only thing that matters is that I have both... not the amount.

 

[Dave T Hobbit]

maths fail there Dave... brackets make no difference with addition.

I was not using addition. I was responding to Magpie, who used +.

Context fail T/S.:laugh:

 

[Sworn Radical]

Just wait another two or three weeks and this discussion will be partially obsolete due to Swordmasters getting new rules.

 

[Tim/Steve]

and then we'll have more fun discussing a whole new set of annoyingly incomplete and non-proof read rules. The circle of GW continues :laugh:

 

[Magpie_Oz]

I was not using addition. I was responding to Magpie, who used +.

Context fail T/S.:laugh:

Hasnat started it !

 

[Hasnat]

Hasnat started it !

Ah, I see that I have caused some havoc. I, however, did not imply a mathematical logic although I understand why some may have perceived it to be so.

Besides, High Elves' Speed of Asuryan rule means they have ASF and ignore ASL from great weapons so have ASF overall without the ASL from GWs whatsoever. So, AoF's ASL cancels with the ASF so give strike at initiative order.