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Discussion Starter #1
so i just bought some swoopong hawks, and reviewing the rules presented me with some very glaring questions.

first off, it says in the codex that
"any time a swooping hawk uses its deep strike ability it may place a single large blast marker centered on a model anywhere on the table and roll a scatter dice"
does this mean that every swooping hawk gets to drop his own pack or is just the whole squad dropping one? also, can an autarch with hawk wings use this?

next, about the famous sky leap, it says in the codex that
the squad may elect to use sky leap in its movement phase.
does this mean that they can drop in and then pop back out before ever really being on the table? and it never says they cant do this if they have already moved, and technically doesnt seem to count as actually moving.

could someone give their knowledge on this? if the two things i say are true theyd be a major bitch, and if they arent they still are, just not so much.
 

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well the first one i'd say is only one template for the squad but RAW might indicate otherwise, lol that could be funny at a GT.

As for the second i think that it is generally though grudgingly accepted by most that is the way skyleap works
 

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Discussion Starter #3
thats good, im glad to hear about the second, because my whole reason for them is based around sky leap.

as for the first question it is odd that they would put in unti instead of aquad, as i think it specified that there was only one template in 3rd. besaides, good luck trying to have an opponent let you drop six str 4 ap 5 large blasts on them!
 

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The wording certainly does seem to indicate that itl;s every swooping hawk rather than each squad. The autarch wouldn't count because he;s not a swooping hawk and isn;t equipped with grenade packs.

Though I could see someone arging that all of the templates must target the same squad (though not nessecarily the same model)
 

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The main problem with your cunning plan is that people have already put up with Hawks a hell of a lot further than they normally would with the in-and-out movement phase, so pushing this extra bit would see you opponentless if you pursued it too agressively. It would simply be more bullshit than anyone could reasonably be expected to take from one squad, and probably see official changes if you puled it in a tournament. It is extremist powergaming, and I hope you know what you're getting yourself into if you want to follow it up.
 

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First, let me say to Uber, you missed a huge problem I figured you would be the only person to point out, and aggressively.

Second, this whole thing, a cunning idea indeed, can't happen. The problem Dire, is that on your first entry missed a key word. The codex RAW says "Anytime a Swooping Hawk unit uses it's deep strike ability, it may use the grenade packs to drop a large template."
Meaning the whole unit, not singles models.

Third, the Skyleap issue. Technically, from the codex, you could move AND Skyleap. That really isn't overpowered, as you can do nothing once leaving the table, removing you from shooting and assault phases. The problem is that they become Reserves and follow Reserve rules when attempting to return on your next movement phase. So it would seem everytime you attempt to get this free jump in and Grenade Pack someone, you would be forced to roll for Reserves each turn you wanted them to deep strike back in.

It might seem overpowered that they can jump in and out, and at turn 4, return on a 2+ to do it again, but there is a big failing. You've just wasted shooting and assault phases just to reposition for a possible free template, and you have a chance of not being able to return at all. Missing out on all those lasblasters and possible sunrifle shots would prevent me from using this ability much. Pretty much only if I was cornered.

~As an edit, I thought of a powerful concept. Use the Skyleap to force big hand to hand units into wide-open close combats, or force units out that must charge closest enemies. Then when in the open, leave them hanging for the shooting gallery and Skyleap out. A beserker force would be injured greatly.~

-Khaine-
 

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Ugh. Well, if ever I was going to miss a minute point of grammar that utterly obliterates an interpretation of the rules that I think is silly, it was now. A few days of no real sleep on planes, plus a cold that's giving me some freaky headspins, and right now I'm just glad I'm not on the floor yet. I'll admit, it was cool when it felt like I was accelerating dramatically, but then the floor started moving and it stopped being fun.

As for the strategy, the minimum Hawk squad, or worse a few of those, can cause massive problems for any light infantry army. The main issue people heave with it, though, is that there just isn't anything they can do about it.
 

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I've fought against this sort of thing a couple times now, and honestly... it doesn't bother me. You certainly can't jump back out on the same turn you arrive-- when you deep strike in, that's supposed to be all the unit's movement that it's allowed for the turn. Yes, the multiple grenade pack possibility now hurts a bit more, but I prefer it to the sustained assault Exarch delievery system that the Swooping Hawks used to be. It's quite characterful now, and it's balanced by the fact that Swooping Hawks have piss-poor AP values on their weapons, and lasblasters are S3 to boot.
 

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The way the entry is worded says otherwise, that you can both deep strike and leave the table on the same turn.

It says nothing about not being able to if already moved or anything of the sort. It just says during the movement phase.
 

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People aren't against the same-turn jump-in-jump-out because it's powerful in any way. Hell, for that price, you could get a Whirlwind that is almost as untouchable, but does much more damage. They're against it because it removes the interactivity from the game, something which alwasy strikes people as not being right. However, since most people don't understand that it's the lack of interactivity bothering them, assume that the squad is bothering them because it's unfair, the closest thing most people come to defining the real problem. But, since it is unfair, it must be unfairfor a reason, it must do something that is too good. Since this squad only does one thing, drops a template, that template must then be unfair. As a result, they blame the template for being far too powerful, when in fact it is simply irritating.

In conclusion: Hawks are uninteractive, not unfair. Except maybe against Guard.

The way I see it is they can jump in and out, and that seems very clear. Similarly, one grenade only seems clear.
 

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If they can jump in and out at the same time, having the models seems redundant. If you're just going to jump in and out and never actually use them on the table proper, why bother paying for a unit of metal models anyway?

The reason I'd be against jumping in and out in the same turn (and I fully expect this to get FAQ'ed, because let's face it, it's an idiotic thing to be able to do. Not because it's broken, but because, as uber said, it's not interactive.) is because Warhammer is about the models. It completely goes against the nature of the game to have a unit which never has to actually physically be placed on the table.
 

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The Son of Horus said:
The reason I'd be against jumping in and out in the same turn (and I fully expect this to get FAQ'ed, because let's face it, it's an idiotic thing to be able to do. Not because it's broken, but because, as uber said, it's not interactive.) is because Warhammer is about the models. It completely goes against the nature of the game to have a unit which never has to actually physically be placed on the table.
*cough* Orbital Strikes *cough* :D
 

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uberschveinen said:
*Cough*Onlyusefulinagamewherethedefendermustholdapieceofterrainandyou'retheattackerandeveninthatcasemoreannoyingthanuseful*Cough*
It's still in the same vein. Also consider that a minimized Swooping Hawks squad with Skyleap is 130 points, give or take.

130 points for a scattering large blast every turn at S4 AP5. If you're that concerned about it, it's easy enough to put your squads in formations to minimize the casualties.

I do admit it's rather cheesy if you have people fielding three five man Hawk squads just for the templates. Like people used to field minimized Ranger squads with Alaitoc just to get the disruption rolls. The difference is it's impossible for the Hawks to kill a four wound Hive Tyrant before the game even starts. It's unfun, but not to the point of broken.
 

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I"m never going to say it's ioverpowered, even though it gets close to it against a Guard infantry formation. I'm just saying it's a crap thing to play against.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
yeah i can see all that, but when i read the whole unit gets to drop a grenade pack i was thinkign why didnt they say squad?, because sometimes a unit is a single model.
 

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In this case, it's pretty clear that "unit" refers to the squad. In the main rulebook, it talks about the definition of a unit-- they say a unit can be a squad, an individual character, a tank, etc. With the exception of the Imperial Guard infantry platoons, it's easiest to think of a unit as a single entity that occupies any given single force organization chart.
 
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i think one of the worst parts is actually the fact they are untouchable. if the eldar player gets the second turn. they can wait until the last turn ds them and have 3 scoring units on the board. 3 units that cant be killed.
 
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