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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
With my first army list now what I would call "complete" in the sense that I am finally satisfied with how it performs and the point total/game lengths I have been getting out of it. I wanted my first army to be exactly that; mine. I play a vanilla marine DIY chapter and never put much thought or research into the existing chapters in terms outside of fluff.

Having said that I happened upon the Blood Angel codex and read it because they are one of my favorite legions/chapters fluff wise. I was surprised to find how much the BA armylist matched mine and my play style.

I still don't want to convert my original chapter to BA, but some of the bonuses and mechanic advantages are just to good to ignore. If I chose to change the fluff of my army to a successor chapter for the BAs do I get full access to the BA list and Characters? I haven't looked much into successor chapters, but my understanding was that I could use the special characters of the host chapter but under different names is that right?
 

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Hmm well instead of changing your fluff to make them a successor chapter maybe come up with a way of explaining what drives them so crazy or something along those lines? allows you to keep them the way they look atm. I don't think anyone would mind you using the blood angels rules as long as there is a plausible explaination.

Edit (sorry i put blood elf :p)
 

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yeah, you can play BA by all means, as long as you are not in an official tournament. In friendly play as long as your friends r ok with it go ahead and do it.
 

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<cough> WoT, Angels not Elves ;-)

But yeah, here's how it works...

You can, for any reason you like, use another chapter's codex as your own. You could be a successor, or even an entirely unrelated chapter but there's a couple strings attached.

First: You have to use all the rules and not just cherry pick the bits you want. Which means paying the inflated cost for BA units, even if you don;t plan to use the death company (which, basically, means coming up with a reason to use the death company otherwise you;re wasting points)

You CAN use the characters. They don't have to be the same guys, they can be Father O'Malleus and his buddy Molestion rather than Lemartes and Mephiston

This brings us to point number two: You have to be very up front about what your army is and what the models represent. Tell the other player right off the bat that you;re using Blood Angels rules. That this guy represents this character, and that guy represents that character.

Now, all that said, as WoT has said you don't have to become a successor chapter. You just have to explain why you;re using certain units and characters. You'll need to come up with an explanation for the Death Company and Mephiston, for example. (But veteran assault squads and Lemartes are pretty generic. Unuusal, perhaps, but not hard to explain)
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
thanks for the response all. It was just something I was mulling over after reading the codex and much to my surprise finding that I was playing a damn near BA chapter without any of the bonuses that they get. I don't mind modifying my fluff to be a BA successor, or off shoot chapter, and actually since I have been thinking about it would make alot of sense for the way my army plays and the paint scheme I have chosen even.

I don't want to just say well I'm playing vanilla marines but the BA codex gives me these tactical advantages so I'm using their rules... If I do this it will be justified and as accurate as I can make it. I just had never even thought of using it and it was quite a coincidence.

Thanks again for the responses guys.
 

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Go for it. Be sure to post your chapter background in the fluff forum sometime.
 

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Yeah absolutely what Galahad has said - does anybody think that there would be a problem with this approach even in a tournement?

The way you can think about it, in the abstract is that you are playing a list. The models are to an extent irrelevant (obviously they're not really, but bear with me).

The point is that 'list A' is fighting against 'list B'; whether 'list A' is Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Ultramarines, White Scars or whatever doesn't matter, as long as the lists are consistent with themselves - as Galahad says, no cherry-picking. So your army can use the Blood Angels (and just the Blood Angels) list.

The models you are using are then proxies/counts as; if they're space marines, no real problem, as long as they look more or less right; so a 'jump-pack close combat squad' counts as a Blood Angels Assault Squad; a 'jump-pack close combat squad with different coloured helmets' (or however you show veteran status in your chapter) counts as a Veteran Assault Squad; a librarian with a plasma pistol counts as Mephiston or whatever. The only thing is to be consistent - you can't really say 'these are assault marines with pistols and close combat weapons but without jump-packs, and these identical-looking assault marines with pistols and close combat weapons but without jump-packs are Death Guard' - you'd have to make them different enough to the rest that your opponent would know they had different rules.

I'm trying to put together a Chaos SM list using the Blood Angels rules - Death Company becomes insane Bezerkers, and such like. The troops all have power armour, bolters or pistol and close combat weapon, so I'm not actually changing anything that the rules are based on, I'm just using different minis to represent the rules. As long you (or indeed I) explain to an opponent that the list is a legal BA list, which special characters are which and such like, there shouldn't be a problem as far as I can see.

:cyclops:
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thanks again for the help guys. I am seriously considering it, but I wouldn't use proxies per say. For the characters I would buy the actual model. I thought you could use the model with the character entry it just would have to be a different "name". Like, say my army was the "Angels of Death" successor chapter of the Blood Angels and it was the led by the Dante model and character entry, it just wouldn't be Dante in name since he's a BA. It would be "Clem" or whatever who uses the dante character entry in the army list.

Do I have that right?
 

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Absolutely - I think there's a bit in the new BA codex where it even advises you to do exactly that.

I wasn't actually advising that you use different models for your BA successors, merely saying that in my case I'd gone 1 or 2 steps further from the models related to the source of the list, but still couldn't see a problem.

the way I see it, the relationship between fluff, models, rules and lists is a kind of square. I probably can't do this as a graphic, but I'll try to explain:

fluff relates to models and lists; models relate to fluff and rules; rules relate to models and lists; lists relate to rules and fluff.

My thinking is, you can field an army composed of the same models as another player using the same list, but painted differently. Blood Angels painted green - that's legal. You can use converted figures to represent Blood Angel. That's legal. As long as it's clear what they represent (eg, power-armoured SMs with bolters) you can use non-BA models to represent BA (most SMs are generic) and it's legal. So because (for instance) my power-armoured SMs with bolters happen to have horns on their helmets is neither here nor there as far as the rules they're fighting under go.

So there's no direct relationship between 'lists' and 'models' as I see it; equally, there's no direct link between 'fluff' and 'rules' - each 'corner' of the square is the point where the 'opposites' meet. A Chaos (models) army meets a BA list (lists) at fluff ('renegade SMs; insane frenzy of Khorne's diciples') and rules (power armour & bolters; Death Company).

And if you're doing a successor chapter, it's even easier: the short answer is:

YES DO THAT! :wink:

:cyclops:
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Nice! Thanks much for the rundown.
 

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For the record, I use different models because Lemartes is one of the most hideous models ever made, and I already have a perfectly good home-made librarian. If you do decide to use different models, just be sure to tell the other guy who is what. But there's nothing wrong with using the same model for different guys. Likewise, you should have no problems with tourneys, especially since 'counts as' has been officially entered into the tournament rules pack.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
After reading a bit more in depth of the BA codex it seems a more restrictive as far as wargear and options go. Leading me to my next question... Since all the special characters specifically state what their wargear is does this mean you cannot give them additional wargear besides what is listed?
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Thought so, thanks for clearing it up words.
 

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Yeah, wargear is getting more restrictive in the new codices, the Dark Angel book is the same way. And yeah, gear on Special Characters is *always* fixed.
 
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