[Bloodcuddler of Khorne]

Mostly due to extreme boredom, I'm trying to design an army that's supposed to represent a civilian population that's turned to Chaos and revolted (yes, I know that's very similar to the Lost and Damned, but #1 I wanted it to be completely independent of Chaos Marines or Renegade Imperial Guard, #2 Lost and Damned is defunct anyway, #3 shut up I'm bored, lol.)

I'm almost done, but I'm still trying to get some of the wargear figured out. I figured that a civilian population would probably not have as much access to las weaponry as the Imperial Guard would, so I've been designing them with solid projectile weaponry in mind. Their main ranged weapon so far is the shotgun, which has rules in the Imperial Guard codex, but I can't find anything for stub pistols.

I know we're not allowed to post stats and point costs here, but is that still the case for stub pistols, which as far as I can tell are no longer included in any current viable codexes? And if you're allowed to, what are the stats for them?

 

[Karnox]

it would be the same for autopistols no?
str 3, ap 5, pistol
maybe give them autoguns aswell, same as above except rapid fire and range 24"

which makes me wonder why guard insist on using lasguns when autoguns are better =/

 

[Stella Cadente]

it would be the same for autopistols no?
str 3, ap 5, pistol
maybe give them autoguns aswell, same as above except rapid fire and range 24"

which makes me wonder why guard insist on using lasguns when autoguns are better =/

where are you getting the stats from for auto weapons?

game wise, stub, auto and las weapons are all the exact same stats, only necromunda makes distinctions between them.

 

[Cato Sicarius]

which makes me wonder why guard insist on using lasguns when autoguns are better =/

Well for a start las weaponry is easier to maintain, and cheap to produce.

Secondly, the laser automatically cauterises any wound caused, which means that squeamish Guardsmen won't be throwing up after shooting somebody because there'll be no blood.

Lastly, Guardsmen aren't actually meant to be going up against Chaos Space Marines, or Orks, or Eldar. Guardsmen are meant to be a defensive force, beating back the foe like a huge hammer, while the Space Marines, like a scalpel, attack the enemy where they're most vulnerable. PDF in particular are perfect examples of this - they aren't supposed to be fighting Orks, that's what big Space Marines do. PDF forces are for fighting rebelling civilians usually, and civilians don't have armour, meaning they die a lot easier.

The thing is, because this is 40k, then the background is logically something like this: Orks have attacked a planet, and the Imperial Guard have to hold the position until the Space Marines arrive.

On the tabletop, the Guardsmen can still win; even if the Space Marines are better at defeating huge Eldar war hosts, the Guardsmen can still try, and on occasion with backup, can do so just as well (albeit with more casualties).

 

[Karnox]

I remember I saw them somewhere in an old codex, or it could have been necromunda. And I thought they were AP 5 but your right, they are just as useless as lasguns.

I find it quite odd how splinter rifles and shuriken catapults are stronger than lasguns. You'd thing that laser fire would go through all but the strongest armour.

 

[Stella Cadente]

Secondly, the laser automatically cauterises any wound caused

I doubt a lasgun would cause any wound that you would associate with a bullet, so there would be no cauterizing, a lasgun would more likely burn the flesh and internal organs and muscle, causing a massive amount of internal damage from the heat alone without leaving gaping wounds to cauterize.

its got nothing to do with guardsmen throwing up, which I doubt they wound, I'm sure they've seen allot worse in training alone.

and I don't see how the idea of guardsmen shouldn't be attacking orks comes from, guardsmen are the first line of offence and defence, and there would be thousands of battles in 40k where not a single marine is ever involved, so they have to be able to win against Orks, eldar, nids etc etc

I find it quite odd how splinter rifles and shuriken catapults are stronger than lasguns. You'd thing that laser fire would go through all but the strongest armour.

fluff wise lasguns probably are as powerful as shurikens and splinter rifles, however game balance wise you can't have 200+ guardsmen as cheap as they are armed with a weapon as powerful as them.

in theory a lasgun IS powerful, in fact they probably cause more internal damage than a bullet since the heat spreads over a larger area

 

[Baron Spikey]

Why? You don't see 'normal' light ripping apart, well anything so a laser is only as strong as you make it- and apparently the laser of a lasgun isn't as powerful as the effect of being hit with a poison tipped shard of crystal or a mm thick disc of metal.

 

[Bloodcuddler of Khorne]

So, stub pistols would have the same stats as autopistols, which have the same stats as laspistols?

And I'm not sure how often civilians would have access to even auto weaponry. How often would something like that be restricted amongst the Empire? I'm trying to avoid things that would be issued to Guardsmen but that civilians couldn't buy, since this is supposed to represent civilians corrupted and empowered by Chaos, rather than renegade Guardmen.

 

[LukeValantine]

I have actually worked with lasers, and very focused lasers like the imperial guard use would actually cause less damage then a bullet, unless they hit a organ then they would cause more since the damaged tissue from a internal burn would cause more complications then the trauma caused by a bullet. Still if you got winged in the arm or in a piece of none flammable armor then unlike a bullet you would almost certainly just ignore the hit for the most part (Still it would hurt like a bitch). Still having been burnt by a cutting laser I have to say it is probably a little more painful to get hit by a laser then a bullet (Never been shot, but I know people that have and they described it to me).

However it makes sense that the game stats for auto guns, and laz are similar. After all I really doubt they would be str4 since the weird mini-grenade launching machine guns of marines are the bench mark for that ranged strength level, and that seems a little more intimidating then getting hit by a .45 in the chest. Now they really wouldn't be weaker then a laz rifle, since a riffle bullet to the chest would drop a human target just as well a laser scything through them. So that rationally only leaves the str3 stat for the auto weapons. Still not to sure about the ap5 stat, but one can assume they are firing .45 caliber steal tipped round for pistols, and something similar to the 5.56mm nato round for auto rifles. So I guess it makes sense that they could penetrate the light armor of guardians/IG. Still they should definitively have a ap value unlike a laz weapon since unlike laz fire a scrap of clothing or a metal belt buckle won't temporarily hold back a chunk of lead going faster then the speed of sound.

 

[Son of mortarion]

c

fluff wise lasguns probably are as powerful as shurikens and splinter rifles, however game balance wise you can't have 200+ guardsmen as cheap as they are armed with a weapon as powerful as them.

in theory a lasgun IS powerful, in fact they probably cause more internal damage than a bullet since the heat spreads over a larger area

your physics/physiology is wrong, the bullet does much more damage than the theoretical heat, the damage that bullets do is not through the inscision caused by the bullet's path through the body, but due to hydrostatic shock, which travels through the whole body. for the lasgun to do more damage through conductive heat transfer, it would have to act like a melta gun or plasma gun(vaporising the target utterly), as the heat required for the conductive heat transfer would create 4th degree burns faster than the heat could be conducted through the mass. Btw, trained as a combat lifesaver,and sister is a nurse, have discussed the effects of gunshot wounds and burns in depth on many occasions.

 

[Blueberrypop]

I wouldn't say lasguns are THAT good but they are better in fluff than they are on the table top.