[maddermax]

you think it's bad now?

Try facing them under 7th ed rules, no magic works and wounding capped out after so much so it was occasioanlly impossible to wound it.

Nowadays you always wound on 6's and it's magically defences have been shattered. Throwing anything that's "tiny strength - no save" is an option. Don't know the WoC magic well enough to know if they have that though.

Warhounds + poison might be a nice cheap option, it'll get it's monster save though

In 7th, you could just throw a unit with great weapons at it, and have a reasonable chance of success. Or a Stone Thrower, which could do D6 wounds on a hit, wounding on 2s. Or a Bolt Thrower, which could Wound on a 4+, D3 wounds. Now, all of those options are wounding on 6s, meaning most things are useless against it, except for magic which ignores toughness, and very rare combinations (like HKB) which can insta-kill the STank.

It just seems like a silly change to me, put in for the hell of it. Now, it can walk around freely, unless an opponent has a specific counter, when it simply dies instantly.

 

[Sethis]

I'm actually no longer worried about steam tanks due to being able to wound anything thing now with any strength

Which sounds fine, except it has a 1+ save as well... and is killing about 15 of your guys per turn.

You can get 4 models in B2B, including a champion. For normal infantry that's 9 attacks. That's 1 wound. That's 6 rounds of combat before you inflict a wound that gets past the armour save.

Wounds caused by you: 1
Wounds caused by it: 45 (It only attacks every other round, 15 hits per round on average, depending on how many steam points they go for).

Show me any "bog down" unit in the game that can cope with that ratio of wounds.

Even for Warriors of Chaos, still only 13 attacks, 2 wounds, 3 rounds of combat before he fails a save. And then it kills your 20-points-per models on 2s with no save.

I don't see why they didn't leave it at T6... at least then my Halberd Warriors are on 5s, my 300pt+ Lord can damage it on 4s and my 285pt Shaggoth can hurt it on 2s with it's 5 attacks (and the Tank hits it back with the aforementioned 15 hits wounding it on 3s with no save, so probably kills it outright).

 

[Tim/Steve]

Im just scared shitless about steam tanks... the grand total of counters with the WE book is the amber spear spell from beasts (requiring me to take a spellweaver, lore of beasts and to get the right spell)... even then I would have to cast it. My ogres are slightly better off with enough armour mads to take the tank down to 3+/4+ save in combat but Im still on 6s to wound. My magic missile is reasomably effective since its 2D6 S2 hits with no armour saves.. but its still only 1 wound average a turn (and not too hard to dispel). I can cast it several times, but it doubtful I would have the butchers to be able to do it...

In the old rules the stank was hard and hit hard. Now its either pathetically easy or near impossible to kill.

 

[Blue Liger]

I agree with you both it would have been better left as T6 and possibly old rules, though I don't GW looked at the probability of it being wounded and then failing it's save, still though with random dice outcomes if you can wound it enough a 1 on a die is still a fail, also as a We player I'd be running around shooting it never combating it.

T/S another way you could wound it with We is using a Alter Noble with machine gun bow set up and then to further buff it take the spell weaver with lore of beasts but I do look at that and go hmm my 200 odd point alter vs a 300pt steam tank that oly has a chnace of wounding it...yeah maybe not

 

[Vaz]

The guy who wrote the List felt like being an arsewipe. For example, multiple Altars of Sigmar, Tanks, (there were, what? 12 in total?)... They NEED to reintroduce limits now that there's no limitation other than percentages.

T6/7 should be absolute limit. There's not a chance that the Steam Tank is tougher than a dragon - especially considering how many cornices these things have. If I'm honest, they should intorduce an Armour Value for it - shooting attacks from the front are T8/10, but against those from the side, T6/8, and T4/6 against those from the rear. Due to not being able to turn, CC attacks always hit the rear toughness. It's armour save is as follows; 1+ to the front, 3+ to the side, 5+ to the rear, and vs CC attacks. Personally, I think it should be upped to 380-400 as well.

Anyways...

To deal with it, Cloying Quagmire is perfect - Fail an Initiative Test, then to survive it must fail it's 1+ Armour Save. Basically, it has a 59% chance to survive - but again, it's just one of those things which is reliant on chance.

Buboes causes a wound as well. What's it's strength value? Can't remember off the top of my head. Either way - a Curse of the Leper might be able to make a bit of dent in it if it's S4 or less.

Hellcannon is ideal.

Alternatively, I've found that the 8th Edition Book is very heavy. It works, if you find a prick willing to take it in 1500 games.

 

[Barnster]

What about using a lord with giant blade (new common magic item), provided you cause a couple of wounds with gateway he should turn it into scrap metal, even more so if you have the points to put him on a dragon

 

[Vaz]

Lord is then S8. Either way, he's still wounding on 6's. Might as well give him +3 Attacks.

 

[Tim/Steve]

Chaos Lord in a unit with the standard of discipline (if you can have someone else as the general.. if not no worry, you just lose the general's Ld bubble) and then cast okkam's mindrazor... lots and lots of auto-hitting S10 attacks.

Randomly thinking about other ways to get S10 got me thinking- you can do it with ogres too: Tyrant with siegebreaker and "giantbreaker" (55pts of magic items) is S9 and as long as the stank doesnt get the I3 of the captain then it auto-hits and does D6 wounds... quick buff with bullgorger can make him S10. 5 S10 auto hit, D6 wound hits probably make him the best combat solution to the stank anywhere (other then non-ogre giants)... but I cant literally think of no other reason to take that tyrant build.

Talking of giants- whoever said earlier that you get their attacks and then thunderstomp was a little off: you cant thunderstomp a steamtank... stomp/thunderstomp only works against infantry/beasts/swarms. Its not a great loss though anyway since it would be an average of .3W a turn...

 

[Vaz]

Okkams Mindrazor requires another Lord though - at the best part of 700pts between the two when given their equipment, that's reserved for 3K games.

 

[Sethis]

Even with a Lord... It's S9 at best (Chaos has no Ld 10 apart from Special Characters) so back onto 5s. Still 6s for anyone other than a Lord (Ld 8 on everything else).

And re Okkams, I thought you used the model's base leadership? Doesn't the rulebook say that "you can use the general's leadership for leadership based tests within 12"..."? Okkams is not a test, therefore you cannot use his leadership to determine your Strength?

Regardless, if I took Lore of Shadows I'd just pendulum it repeatedly anyway... I can't be guaranteed to kill it even with S9, and it's knocking out 15 Warriors with impact hits before I even attack.

 

[Vaz]

Standard of Discipline = +1 Ld.

It states that models use their Ld - nothing about base leadership, only their leadership, so benefits from Discipline (S9), but you're correct that they don't use the Lord's Leadership for the unit.

 

[maddermax]

To deal with it, Cloying Quagmire is perfect - Fail an Initiative Test, then to survive it must fail it's 1+ Armour Save. Basically, it has a 59% chance to survive - but again, it's just one of those things which is reliant on chance.

STank autofails I checks, so it has an 85% chance of being a dead steamtank (just needs to fail it's save). As Son of Horus said, the spell should just read "remove target steamtank from game".

 

[Shadowfane]

The one time I faced a steam tank was in 7th, at the doubles warhamer tournament at nottingham, with me using skaven and my partner using beastmen - the guy using the steamtank was somewhat horrifed when I fed it a unit of slaves and proceeded to bombard the ensuing close combat with my globadiers.... "Whats that, you say? a fixed value to wound with no armour save?".....
(Yes, I realise this doesnt help the OP, but since I've never faced one with anything but skaven, and only 750 points of skaven at that, thats about the only thing I can contribute to this conversation....so, sorry )

 

[Creon]

There is the Wood Elf Sword that autowounds, and then does a 1d6 ld vs ld no saves of any sort for further wounds. That can take down a STANK fast. As can the Runefang. Honestly, the worst thing a steam tank faces is 20 skinks with blowpipes. Or any poisoned ranged attack with enough behind it. Sure the save is 1+, but make about 10 saves a round and it rapidly dies. As for Chaos, sure, you're limited on doing things about it. Flank charges with Knights is likely the best that you can expect.

 

[Vaz]

Nobody ever takes that sword though - it's way too situational, and you don't want to put a WElf Lord anywhere near a challenge with T3, and a maximum save of 4+/5++.

Thanks for the Qualification, maddermax.

 

[Creon]

Oh, I take it all the time. But then again, I'm well known to be crazy in some of my army builds. Especially with the 2 lord 2500 point army being legal,

 

[Vaz]

Fair enough - I suppose I run the water list a bit more - Vanguard Glade Riders and Scouting Waywatchers are just too good to miss out on these days.

 

[kain1989]

I just played the steam tank with my wood elves earlier today, and i got him to charge my dryads, he killed half of them, and they broke, then i counter charged it with a treeman, for 5 turns they just beat on eachother. I know that doesn't help chaos, but if you can put 3 wounds on it, he'll have to conserve steam points, and it hampers the effectiveness, so I doubt many armys will get victory points from it, more like the idea will be to deny it making its points back.

 

[Sethis]

Flank charges with Knights is likely the best that you can expect.

Are you kidding? Instead of losing a 20pt model 100% of the time, I'd lose a 50pt model 50% of the time, which is worse, point for point. And they wouldn't even hold it up for a turn because they don't have steadfast.

I might just have to take Lore of Nurgle in an identical list, and use that when fighting him. Sucks, but there we go.

 

[Tim/Steve]

There is the Wood Elf Sword that autowounds, and then does a 1d6 ld vs ld no saves of any sort for further wounds. That can take down a STANK fast. As can the Runefang. Honestly, the worst thing a steam tank faces is 20 skinks with blowpipes. Or any poisoned ranged attack with enough behind it. Sure the save is 1+, but make about 10 saves a round and it rapidly dies. As for Chaos, sure, you're limited on doing things about it. Flank charges with Knights is likely the best that you can expect.

Cant see the spirit sword working TBH- you have 4 attacks, which will all hit and wound, then the stank has a 2+ save to fail. SO you might do a wound. The you have 1D6+10, and he has 1D6+10 and whoever scores higher does that many wound to the opponent... with equal Ld you are just as likely to wound yourself as the enemy (and since you would need to do another 9 wounds to the enemy, vs the 3 he needs on you its unlikely you'll win). Although take a potion of strength and you'll be doing well. S7 means that the stank will have 4 5+ saves to make, and then is likely to be rolling for the spirit sword 3 times.. which is pretty likely to kill your highborn, but if you are taking a few more wounds off the tank you'll have ended its usefulness for the game.


I always think its the first 4 wounds on a steam tank that are the important ones. If you can cause 3-4 wounds on a stank then its usefulness will mostly be ended. Most of the people I play against dont risk more then a 1in3 chance of overpowering the stank... so if you do 3 wounds they'll normally only try for 3 steam points (or 2 steam points if you do 4W). So thats knocked the stank down to 2/5 or 3/5 effectiveness... plus then it'll start to rack up wounds on itself, fast becoming suicidal.
With the aim of doing a handful of wounds onto the stank most armies can combine auto-wound weapons with a potion of strength to charge in, cause lots of wounds and have a decent armour mod from the extra strength. If your lord is in a decent sized unit of chaff (cheapest stuff armound) then the reduced number of impact attacks shouldn't kill his unit too fast (and with his Ld he should stay there).. you are then forcing quite a few saves from teh tank each turn so should be taking about 1 wound a turn. So, do ~3 wounds when you charge.. then do 1 a turn and the steam tank should only really get 1 decent set of impact hits on you before its taken so many wounds as to need luck to get any steam points (at 5W its only 50-50 on managing to get 2 steam points... and 2D3 impact hits probably wont be enough to kill a rank).


As for chaos knights- NOOOOOooooo, keep them well clear of the steam tank. Marauders are the way to go for counter-units, preferably with great weapons and frenzy (ignore terror and extra attacks). Get into th flank and you can have upto 18 S5 attacks (could go 24 with hoard... but steadfast is more important). You should still only be doing 1W a turn... but get a little lucky and you'll take enough to start knackering its effectiveness (and if nothing else you have your cheapest unit holding it up)... you could then have a lord in there to try to up the damage or put in festus to reduce the damage you'll be taking.
3 ranks, banner and 1 wound a turn means that the stank would need an average of 3 steam points to draw... throw in festus and it'll take 5 to beat you, and losing 5-6 marauders a turn is next to nothing. ANy magic that makes the steam tank have a worse save (either -vs to it, or +vs strength to the marauders) will help.

Im not sure how poison works against WS0 enemies... the rules say all attacks hit automatically, but it doesnt say you dont roll to hit. So Im wondering if you would roll the 'to hit' dice, with them all automatically passing but with 6s being poisoned. Opinions?