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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey guys,

This is my first ever whine thread.

Ok, it's not really a whine thread (please don't ban me!! :laugh: ) but more of a "Um, I have no idea what to do" thread.

So, I play WoC. I have a pretty decent track record so far, losing only to another WoC army and Daemons. And, last week, Empire.

I've played against two other Empire Players, neither of whom offered any problems whatsoever. I lost guys to shooting, but eventually hit combat and did a superb impression of a combine harvester in a wet field.

This third Empire army though, has a Steam Tank.

I thought "Ooh, I get to see what all the hype is about!" without being seriously worried (I'd never played against one before, ever). I thought I could bog it down with a War Shrine, and then maybe attack it with a big block of warriors and win through sheer number of attacks.

Game 1: My Shrine took a cannonball on turn one, failed my 3+ Ward and he rolled a 6. My shaggoth was on the other side of the board, so couldn't really get there in time to help. The steam tank, singlehandedly, destroyed 2 units of 25 Warriors (complete with Sorcerer and BSB). The rest of his army did nothing at all. An average of 15 S6 hits just wiped each unit out in 1-2 turns.

Game 2: My shrine managed to make it into combat with the tank unscathed (passed all my wards), and I'd knocked two wounds off it with a lucky gateway cast (7 S9 hits) already. The shrine lost the combat and broke (even with rerolls from the BSB). The tank then repeated his earlier trick of destroying an entire warrior unit (the other warriors were wiped out to a man when his hellblaster misfired and emptied 30 rounds into them) leaving me with a lone Sorc and BSB who had left the unit (they saw what was coming!).

I cannot comprehend how anyone in their right mind thinks that a single 300pt rare choice should be able to walk through ~1500pts of elite infantry including a lord and hero choice and take little to no damage. My army has no answer to it. Literally, none. Apart from a gateway cast with 11 or 12 strength. I can't even think of anything in the Chaos book that can reliably kill it.

What do you do? How the **** do you kill them?

(And please don't reply with "Lore of Metal, duh" because I'm not swapping to Metal just to deal with the one unit in one army when this is supposed to be an all comers list)
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Warriors of Chaos only have access to Death and Fire on Hero choices, and Death, Fire and Shadow on Lord choices. And the WoC lores.

I really didn't want to move away from Tzeentch as a Lore, because I've never needed Death or Shadow before. I have no difficulty killing enemy troops without the Debuffs from Shadow, and my Characters are hard enough to kill enemy characters head on, so I don't need the Death sniping abilities.

I sometimes take Festus, so I could hope for Quagmire on him... But again, he's not in my all comers list, so the only way for me to win is basically to write an "Anti Steam Tank List" which seems a bit pointless to me.

I can't take allies because this is 2000pts, and I probably wouldn't take any even if I could.

Things I can see in the Chaos Dex that can reliably hurt it:

Hellcannon (direct hit only)
Lord with Glaive of Putrefaction and Potion of Strength (for armour mod), hope for a lucky six.
10-12 Gateway cast.
Giant

I don't own a Hellcannon or a Giant, because the Giant sucks and the Hellcannon is too unreliable for me. That leaves me with changing the gear on my Lord and hoping for a lucky 6 to wound, or a solid gateway cast.

I tried bogging it down/ignoring it, and neither option works. The shrine almost always loses the combat due to taking one or more wounds while inflicting none in return, and I don't have anything else that could possibly last any number of turns against 10-18 S6 hits. Everything else in my army is on 6s to wound, and he'll get some kind of save, which he needs to fail 10 of.

Fundamentally, I object to a unit that can single-handedly wipe out my entire army with only the help of a Hellblaster and a unit of Pistoliers. I don't even comprehend how anyone can be deluded enough to think that it is balanced. Did they actually playtest the Tank against an army that doesn't have Shadow/Death lores or Cannon? Why did they even change it?

Well, I guess it's time to write my "Anti-tank" Fantasy list... Either that or I start playing Empire and take two of them myself...
 

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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
I'm actually no longer worried about steam tanks due to being able to wound anything thing now with any strength
Which sounds fine, except it has a 1+ save as well... and is killing about 15 of your guys per turn.

You can get 4 models in B2B, including a champion. For normal infantry that's 9 attacks. That's 1 wound. That's 6 rounds of combat before you inflict a wound that gets past the armour save.

Wounds caused by you: 1
Wounds caused by it: 45 (It only attacks every other round, 15 hits per round on average, depending on how many steam points they go for).

Show me any "bog down" unit in the game that can cope with that ratio of wounds.

Even for Warriors of Chaos, still only 13 attacks, 2 wounds, 3 rounds of combat before he fails a save. And then it kills your 20-points-per models on 2s with no save.

I don't see why they didn't leave it at T6... at least then my Halberd Warriors are on 5s, my 300pt+ Lord can damage it on 4s and my 285pt Shaggoth can hurt it on 2s with it's 5 attacks (and the Tank hits it back with the aforementioned 15 hits wounding it on 3s with no save, so probably kills it outright).
 

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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
Even with a Lord... It's S9 at best (Chaos has no Ld 10 apart from Special Characters) so back onto 5s. Still 6s for anyone other than a Lord (Ld 8 on everything else).

And re Okkams, I thought you used the model's base leadership? Doesn't the rulebook say that "you can use the general's leadership for leadership based tests within 12"..."? Okkams is not a test, therefore you cannot use his leadership to determine your Strength?

Regardless, if I took Lore of Shadows I'd just pendulum it repeatedly anyway... I can't be guaranteed to kill it even with S9, and it's knocking out 15 Warriors with impact hits before I even attack.
 

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Discussion Starter · #39 ·
Flank charges with Knights is likely the best that you can expect.
Are you kidding? Instead of losing a 20pt model 100% of the time, I'd lose a 50pt model 50% of the time, which is worse, point for point. And they wouldn't even hold it up for a turn because they don't have steadfast.

I might just have to take Lore of Nurgle in an identical list, and use that when fighting him. Sucks, but there we go.
 

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Discussion Starter · #44 ·
So Im wondering if you would roll the 'to hit' dice, with them all automatically passing but with 6s being poisoned. Opinions?
That sounds like a good (if not RAW) solution.
 
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