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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey guys,

This is my first ever whine thread.

Ok, it's not really a whine thread (please don't ban me!! :laugh: ) but more of a "Um, I have no idea what to do" thread.

So, I play WoC. I have a pretty decent track record so far, losing only to another WoC army and Daemons. And, last week, Empire.

I've played against two other Empire Players, neither of whom offered any problems whatsoever. I lost guys to shooting, but eventually hit combat and did a superb impression of a combine harvester in a wet field.

This third Empire army though, has a Steam Tank.

I thought "Ooh, I get to see what all the hype is about!" without being seriously worried (I'd never played against one before, ever). I thought I could bog it down with a War Shrine, and then maybe attack it with a big block of warriors and win through sheer number of attacks.

Game 1: My Shrine took a cannonball on turn one, failed my 3+ Ward and he rolled a 6. My shaggoth was on the other side of the board, so couldn't really get there in time to help. The steam tank, singlehandedly, destroyed 2 units of 25 Warriors (complete with Sorcerer and BSB). The rest of his army did nothing at all. An average of 15 S6 hits just wiped each unit out in 1-2 turns.

Game 2: My shrine managed to make it into combat with the tank unscathed (passed all my wards), and I'd knocked two wounds off it with a lucky gateway cast (7 S9 hits) already. The shrine lost the combat and broke (even with rerolls from the BSB). The tank then repeated his earlier trick of destroying an entire warrior unit (the other warriors were wiped out to a man when his hellblaster misfired and emptied 30 rounds into them) leaving me with a lone Sorc and BSB who had left the unit (they saw what was coming!).

I cannot comprehend how anyone in their right mind thinks that a single 300pt rare choice should be able to walk through ~1500pts of elite infantry including a lord and hero choice and take little to no damage. My army has no answer to it. Literally, none. Apart from a gateway cast with 11 or 12 strength. I can't even think of anything in the Chaos book that can reliably kill it.

What do you do? How the **** do you kill them?

(And please don't reply with "Lore of Metal, duh" because I'm not swapping to Metal just to deal with the one unit in one army when this is supposed to be an all comers list)
 

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Ah, not the reason that I thought the FAQ writer needs shooting... but a valid alternative.
Last few days I've been thinking about the steam tank after reading through the empire FAQ the other day:

Steam Tank, Magic phase
Ignore this paragraph.
Ok, so non-strength magic can hurt the steam tank.. great
Q. Can the spell Pit of Shades from the Lore of Shadows affect the
Steam Tank? (p51)
A. No.
Huh... and why not? If the steam tank no longer has any special magic protection then it should be down to an I3 test vs death... I have absolutely no idea why the pit of shades can't affect the steam tank. At least I assume you use the commander initiative, since it is a chariot now...

Tricking the steam tank into dangerous terrain, characteristic tests such as dwellers or purple sun or just throwing about a billion attacks at it will eventually kill it.... lore of metal works too. WoC dont really have a lot of choice- you can send in units of marauders with great weapons, flails (or just go for numbers and dont try for armour mods) or you can take the lores of metal/death (I assume you can take them)... mebbe a chaos giant could help you out (I only remember my own slavegiants giants rules... and they are pretty useless vs a steam tank).
Other then that, to really beat it up in combat you are looking at D3-D6 wound weapons and try to get lucky, armour ignoring attacks (lots of them) or just get S9-10 attacks, but then I doubt many can get S up that high (my ogres can if I really tried... but otehr then steam tanks there is no reason to).
 

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Well the Steam Tank is not immune to magic, right? Spirit Leech comes to mind, along with the Pendulum, Melkoth's Miasma and Okkam's Mindrazor. I know it sucks to drop the Lore of Tzeentch or to get another Sorcerer Lord solely for Lore of Shadow but I think its worth the effort.
 

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Sethis,

The Empire Steam Tank is a powerful weapon no doubt. I run 1 in an Empire army if I play 3k. However its now possible for you to have to face 2 at a time if the Empire player has decided to go that way.

The weakness however of the Empire list/s itself though is in the Steam Tank itself. Its the only Empire choice that is quite tough... quite able to punch through a lot of stuff. Everything else in the empire army your facing has a low toughness value or has a low Intiative or mediocre leadership.

The altar of Sigmar is the only other object that is tough and has good LD value. That means fighting the empire can be handled in several ways... the first is to shut down the steam tank as a threat. I have seen this done even with units large enough of skaven slaves. You don't need to kill it... you just need to stop it or lead its focus to something else. The great advantage is the fact you can hit it and kill it with its T10. Yes... that can be tough... but to my knowledge its not immune to KB. Thats the inherent weakness in the thing. Treat the steam tank like a 300 odd point character as a target to be taken down. I hate WOC for this reason... they can be tooled with so much so differently from player to player..... even to the point of ugh what the hell am I going to have to compensate for now.... The Empire player has really limited options. He has to outshoot you... he has to keep you away.... he has to protect his fragile yet game altering wizards using basic lores.... focus on these weaknesses in his force and the 300 odd point steam tank is a small consideration if you can tie it up or send something to stop it.

As for Lores etc.... totally respect you dont want to change lores. BUT... lore of metal is an almost must for an all comers list in 8th edition if you can get access to it. It affects so many armies from dwarves, to empire to WOC to DE to HE... its just too good not to take it comparatively when your not sure what your facing.
 

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Ah, not the reason that I thought the FAQ writer needs shooting... but a valid alternative.
Last few days I've been thinking about the steam tank after reading through the empire FAQ the other day:


Ok, so non-strength magic can hurt the steam tank.. great

Huh... and why not? If the steam tank no longer has any special magic protection then it should be down to an I3 test vs death... I have absolutely no idea why the pit of shades can't affect the steam tank. At least I assume you use the commander initiative, since it is a chariot now...

Because Pit of Shades is "Special", obviously, and the writer of the FAQ is probably a bit "Special" too.

Anyway, steam tank will kill you unless you can get lore of death (Purple Sun autokills it, other spells are very useful against it) or Lore of metal. The Dwellers below has no effect on it (it autopasses all characteristics tests besides I tests), so outside of those, you'll have a bloody hard time. It's just a bit ridiculous they created an essentially invincible tank, where having the right magic combo auto-kills it. Its like: Have the right spell? Autowin. Don't have it? Fail.

There are ways around it, of course, but the thing is nothing is as sure as just having a Lore of Death caster.
 

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Lore of Nurgle should do wonders. You're assured of Getting Buboes, which'll be a wound with no armour save. If you can get Cloying Quagmire off on it, it has to pass an I test (50% at I 3) and if it fails it has to fail its 1+ armour save or else sink into the swamp.
Can't remember off hand the rest of the lore, but I'm sure there's some other nasty surprises for the steam tank in there.
 

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Lore of Nurgle should do wonders. You're assured of Getting Buboes, which'll be a wound with no armour save. If you can get Cloying Quagmire off on it, it has to pass an I test (50% at I 3) and if it fails it has to fail its 1+ armour save or else sink into the swamp.
Can't remember off hand the rest of the lore, but I'm sure there's some other nasty surprises for the steam tank in there.
The Steamtank auto-fails I tests. I don't know what Quagmire does, but if it causes an I test, it's probably win against STanks.
 

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Cloying Quagmire actually just reads, "Remove target Steam Tank from the game." Since you can cast spells with up to six dice, you just miscast the thing and shrug when your sorcerer blows his own head off in the process. It sucks that it comes to that, but that's really just the simplest solution for the things out of Warriors of Chaos.

The other option Chaos can bring to the table which can deal with the steam tank decently is, oddly enough, the giant. I've seen other Chaos players have great success using a giant against steam tanks, and while I haven't given it a try myself, the numbers seem to work out so that the giant has a decent chance of dealing with it effectively. Between very likely hitting the thing with a club and thunderstomp, you'll be rolling enough dice to break the thing open (or at least render it ineffective-- you only need to get it down to five wounds or so to get it to stop being a useful weapon for the Empire player.) If you try to go that route, the Mark of Khorne is a must, purely for the extra point of strength it gives the giant.

If you're a gambler, the Hellcannon can also deal with a steam tank if it manages to get a shot to hit. You -will- make a wreck of the thing if it hits, but...making it hit is its own set of problems. That's sort of a third string defense against the steam tank, though, purely because it's unreliable to begin with, and you'll only get one shot before the steam tank barrels over it, or the Empire player shoots it with a cannon, etc.

The final option, which isn't strictly a Warriors of Chaos option, is to look into allied troops. At 3000 points and above, you can bring allied troops in your army, and interestingly enough, Skaven have some stuff which can more than make up any deficit you have in dealing with the steam tank. The Warpstone Cannon comes to mind, in particular, although Jezzails and Ratling Gun weapons teams also are quite workable against a steam tank because of their relatively high strength. Still looking for sixes to wound the thing, but with a stiff negative to the armor save, you'll see most of those sixes go through. Those aren't expensive allies to invest in, either.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Warriors of Chaos only have access to Death and Fire on Hero choices, and Death, Fire and Shadow on Lord choices. And the WoC lores.

I really didn't want to move away from Tzeentch as a Lore, because I've never needed Death or Shadow before. I have no difficulty killing enemy troops without the Debuffs from Shadow, and my Characters are hard enough to kill enemy characters head on, so I don't need the Death sniping abilities.

I sometimes take Festus, so I could hope for Quagmire on him... But again, he's not in my all comers list, so the only way for me to win is basically to write an "Anti Steam Tank List" which seems a bit pointless to me.

I can't take allies because this is 2000pts, and I probably wouldn't take any even if I could.

Things I can see in the Chaos Dex that can reliably hurt it:

Hellcannon (direct hit only)
Lord with Glaive of Putrefaction and Potion of Strength (for armour mod), hope for a lucky six.
10-12 Gateway cast.
Giant

I don't own a Hellcannon or a Giant, because the Giant sucks and the Hellcannon is too unreliable for me. That leaves me with changing the gear on my Lord and hoping for a lucky 6 to wound, or a solid gateway cast.

I tried bogging it down/ignoring it, and neither option works. The shrine almost always loses the combat due to taking one or more wounds while inflicting none in return, and I don't have anything else that could possibly last any number of turns against 10-18 S6 hits. Everything else in my army is on 6s to wound, and he'll get some kind of save, which he needs to fail 10 of.

Fundamentally, I object to a unit that can single-handedly wipe out my entire army with only the help of a Hellblaster and a unit of Pistoliers. I don't even comprehend how anyone can be deluded enough to think that it is balanced. Did they actually playtest the Tank against an army that doesn't have Shadow/Death lores or Cannon? Why did they even change it?

Well, I guess it's time to write my "Anti-tank" Fantasy list... Either that or I start playing Empire and take two of them myself...
 

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Until you play against someone with Purple Sun and get them vanished.

Aramoro

But thats the whole point Sethis is making, and I agree, The instant you say "Until you cast purple sun" You reveal the imbalance to some degree. The it isnt just STanks, the instant you need to start changing your army just to counter one unit or ability is the instant something is at least slightly imbalanced to me.


As for suggestions of beating it, Great weapon potion of str? But thats so highly situation as well, and I cant remember exactly but I dont think your lord would make enough attacks to kill it while the potion lasts.. :(
 

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That was kind of my point as well coming from the Purple Sun game ruiner thread.

For blowing it up maybe Cannons would do a good job, or mooks to try and slow it's advance forlornly. Masses of cheap guys is maybe an option, it doesn't really matter if you're S2 or S8 you're on 6's to wound it. it gets an Armour save but as long as you have 1 Rank you'll be Stubborn.

Aramoro
 

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you think it's bad now?

Try facing them under 7th ed rules, no magic works and wounding capped out after so much so it was occasioanlly impossible to wound it.

Nowadays you always wound on 6's and it's magically defences have been shattered. Throwing anything that's "tiny strength - no save" is an option. Don't know the WoC magic well enough to know if they have that though.

Warhounds + poison might be a nice cheap option, it'll get it's monster save though
 

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Warhounds + poison might be a nice cheap option, it'll get it's monster save though
You do realise that from a common sense perspective this is beyond absurd? Imagine a big pack of dogs eating and pissing away at the Steam Tank and eventually ruining it.

This is so stupid, it might just work. :p :laugh:

I wish I could stop laughing. :laugh:
 

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I'm actually no longer worried about steam tanks due to being able to wound anything thing now with any strength, though as a We player I now hate cannons and hellstorms more - Thanks pre measure and no guess!
 
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