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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So I've been toying with my own ideas for how to build a fun Crimson Slaughter army that may not be perfectly optimized but could play well on the table.

I'm currently looking at two different ways to build the Lord:

Chaos Lord #1:, MoK, Relentless Blade, Slaughter's Horns (for the Furious Charge bonus), Daemonheart, Sigil of Corruption, Juggernaught (rides in a pack of Spawn),
Chaos Lord #2: MoN, Relentless Blade, Slaughter's Horns, Daemonheart, Blight Grenades, Sigil of Corruption, Bike (rolls in a unit of bikes)

Obviously the first one is slightly killier with the extra attack and isn't too unreasonably defensive wise at T5, W4 (riding with bikes wouldn't be bad either, but they'd need to be marked correctly to match), but the second trades that extra attack and wound to get to T6, has the same Strength value. A squad of Nurgle bikes is decently hard to kill as well which makes the unit a bit harder to kill, but they're faster as well so they can be stuck in by turn 2.

As for the army properly:

Troops:
2 Squads: CSM (x 10), MoK, IoW, +CCW, 2 Melta, Gift of Mutation on the champ (Give the Champ a Lighting Claw or a Power Weapon?), Rhino, Dirge Caster, Havoc Launcher
1 Squad: Cultists (20-35), Heavy Stubber or Flamers (backfield objective holders mainly)

Fast Attack:
Heldrake, Baleflamer
Raptors (x10), 2 Flamers, 2x LC on the Champ, Gift of Mutation on the Champ (suggested marks? Objective/Pathfinder/Weapon Team hunters)
Bikes or Spawn, max unit (depending on the Lord)

Heavy Support:
Forgefiend (Triple Plas build) (dropped as point require)
2x of either Vindicators (Possessed), Predators (maybe Possessed?) or Obliterator units.

And that's what I'm basically trying to build with/around. I'm open to suggestions (mainly between the options listed more than "you should never take that, it's not competitive enough, so take this instead"), but keep in mind this isn't something I'm trying to take Nova with, this is a fun list I'm putting together I'm hoping to have will have some bite to keep things interesting. And no, I'm not filling the army with Plague Marines. If I wanted that I'd still be playing Death Guard.
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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So I've been toying with my own ideas for how to build a fun Crimson Slaughter army that may not be perfectly optimized but could play well on the table.

I'm currently looking at two different ways to build the Lord:

Chaos Lord #1:, MoK, Relentless Blade, Slaughter's Horns (for the Furious Charge bonus), Daemonheart, Sigil of Corruption, Juggernaught (rides in a pack of Spawn),
Chaos Lord #2: MoN, Relentless Blade, Slaughter's Horns, Daemonheart, Blight Grenades, Sigil of Corruption, Bike (rolls in a unit of bikes)

Obviously the first one is slightly killier with the extra attack and isn't too unreasonably defensive wise at T5, W4 (riding with bikes wouldn't be bad either, but they'd need to be marked correctly to match), but the second trades that extra attack and wound to get to T6, has the same Strength value. A squad of Nurgle bikes is decently hard to kill as well which makes the unit a bit harder to kill, but they're faster as well so they can be stuck in by turn 2.
Honestly, both look good. I like the 4 wounds with IWND, but also the T6 immunity to doubling out... really, all other things being equal, I think it comes down to whether or not you want to field Plague Marines. As you say, you're not interested in those, though, so I'd probably go for the Khornate version--he matches your footsloggers better, for one thing. I would, however, say that he already has Rage and Hammer of Wrath, and if you stick him in Khorne Bikers with a IoW, he'll have Furious Charge as well. Even if you stick with Spawn, I don't think you can justify the cost of the Horns for just one of the three abilities they grant...

I would also consider throwing meltabombs onto that lord, in case they run up against an AV 13 Walker in melee or something.

As for the army properly:

Troops:
2 Squads: CSM (x 10), MoK, IoW, +CCW, 2 Melta, Gift of Mutation on the champ (Give the Champ a Lighting Claw or a Power Weapon?), Rhino, Dirge Caster, Havoc Launcher
1 Squad: Cultists (20-35), Heavy Stubber or Flamers (backfield objective holders mainly)
All well and good, and largely the expenses are justified with the increase in marginal utility of the unit. Still, as far as personal preference goes, I think you may be overloading the units with upgrades slightly. I personally don't go for anything in the way of gear on squad champions (unless I'm infiltrating a blob of 20, or something), and you might want to consider the dirge caster and havoc launcher an either/or proposition--I find that rhinos are just too fragile to be worth too many upgrades. By and large, though, good. Similarly, if the Cultists aren't there to escort a melee beatstick up the board, why include them?

Fast Attack:
Heldrake, Baleflamer
Raptors (x10), 2 Flamers, 2x LC on the Champ, Gift of Mutation on the Champ (suggested marks? Objective/Pathfinder/Weapon Team hunters)
Bikes or Spawn, max unit (depending on the Lord)
The problem that I have with Raptors... well... if may quote my tactica real quick:

"What makes Bikers so much better than Raptors? Well, how about we take those Raptors, give them twin-linked bolters in addition to their CCW+BP, as well as Relentless so they can shoot it and still charge. Make it so that even if they move 12" during their movement phase, they still basically ignore difficult terrain when charging* and still get Hammer of Wrath. Give them the option of going another 12" turbo-boost during the shooting phase, rather than a paltry D6" run roll. Oh, and did I mention that the Bikers get a 5+ cover save at all times due to moving, which the aforementioned turbo-boosting bumps up to a 4+? Yeah, there is that. They still get 2 special weapons in a (smaller, cheaper) minimum squad size. They still have assault grenades. Not to mention, oh yeah, the fact that Bikers also automatically get +1 Toughness!"

For such a measly increase in points per model, I daresay it's worth it to prioritize bikes over raptors. If you're certain what you want, though, I'd go for Slanesh (attack first) or Khorne (more attacks)--the defensive marks are too damn expensive to stick on what are basically normal marines, as far as I'm concerned.

Heavy Support:
Forgefiend (Triple Plas build) (dropped as point require)
2x of either Vindicators (Possessed), Predators (maybe Possessed?) or Obliterator units.
As a general rule, I never bother with Possession, these days. With shaken and stunned such rare results these days (especially when low AP weapons skip them), I don't think Possessed is worth both the cost and the lowered BS. Vindis, Preds, and Oblits are all fun, but I freely admit to a weakness for Heavy Support choices...

It's a solid base, certainly. I look forward to when you fine-tune it into a proper list. Have you considered adding a divination-Sorc, perhaps? That's the only real omission that springs to mind, for me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Honestly, both look good. I like the 4 wounds with IWND, but also the T6 immunity to doubling out... really, all other things being equal, I think it comes down to whether or not you want to field Plague Marines. As you say, you're not interested in those, though, so I'd probably go for the Khornate version--he matches your footsloggers better, for one thing. I would, however, say that he already has Rage and Hammer of Wrath, and if you stick him in Khorne Bikers with a IoW, he'll have Furious Charge as well. Even if you stick with Spawn, I don't think you can justify the cost of the Horns for just one of the three abilities they grant...
Even spending that 15 points on the Horns he's a far cry cheaper than the a Fisticlaws Lord though it's a fair trade I think to help up his killing power early.

Khorne bikers could be fun (I mostly am looking at Khorne because they fit the mass butchery of the CS).

I would also consider throwing meltabombs onto that lord, in case they run up against an AV 13 Walker in melee or something.
Not common to run into, but a fair point to consider.

All well and good, and largely the expenses are justified with the increase in marginal utility of the unit. Still, as far as personal preference goes, I think you may be overloading the units with upgrades slightly. I personally don't go for anything in the way of gear on squad champions (unless I'm infiltrating a blob of 20, or something), and you might want to consider the dirge caster and havoc launcher an either/or proposition--I find that rhinos are just too fragile to be worth too many upgrades. By and large, though, good. Similarly, if the Cultists aren't there to escort a melee beatstick up the board, why include them?
Yeah, thinking about it more I don't have enough vehicle saturation to justify Dirge Casters. I'm iffy if I'll go as far as cutting the Havok Launchers though.

The problem that I have with Raptors... well... if may quote my tactica real quick:

"What makes Bikers so much better than Raptors? Well, how about we take those Raptors, give them twin-linked bolters in addition to their CCW+BP, as well as Relentless so they can shoot it and still charge. Make it so that even if they move 12" during their movement phase, they still basically ignore difficult terrain when charging* and still get Hammer of Wrath. Give them the option of going another 12" turbo-boost during the shooting phase, rather than a paltry D6" run roll. Oh, and did I mention that the Bikers get a 5+ cover save at all times due to moving, which the aforementioned turbo-boosting bumps up to a 4+? Yeah, there is that. They still get 2 special weapons in a (smaller, cheaper) minimum squad size. They still have assault grenades. Not to mention, oh yeah, the fact that Bikers also automatically get +1 Toughness!"

For such a measly increase in points per model, I daresay it's worth it to prioritize bikes over raptors. If you're certain what you want, though, I'd go for Slanesh (attack first) or Khorne (more attacks)--the defensive marks are too damn expensive to stick on what are basically normal marines, as far as I'm concerned.
Well if I end up taking a unit of bikes, why can't I take a unit of Raptors too? The bikes and Lord (regardless of what he's on) unit is a big fire magnet and having a unit around to skirt around the battlefield and hunt down units like Pathfinders or Heavy Weapon Teams (or just killing the squishy objective holders they have on their back lines) isn't a bad idea.

As for the Cultists: blob squad to hold my own backline objective, or perhaps to pair with a Helbrute if the Helcult is as fun as the idea sounds? Right now I'm not 100% sure what I want to do with them, just that I want some on the table. :p

As a general rule, I never bother with Possession, these days. With shaken and stunned such rare results these days (especially when low AP weapons skip them), I don't think Possessed is worth both the cost and the lowered BS. Vindis, Preds, and Oblits are all fun, but I freely admit to a weakness for Heavy Support choices...
I've been warned off Vindis by another person, and to keep costs down I'm considering

It's a solid base, certainly. I look forward to when you fine-tune it into a proper list. Have you considered adding a divination-Sorc, perhaps? That's the only real omission that springs to mind, for me.
I am considering the Sorc (maybe on a Palanquin and buried in the unit of Cultists?) but I don't know what I'm really bringing him for. I know Divination is a solid power set but I don't really have a job planned for him at the moment which is the issue.
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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As for the Cultists: blob squad to hold my own backline objective, or perhaps to pair with a Helbrute if the Helcult is as fun as the idea sounds? Right now I'm not 100% sure what I want to do with them, just that I want some on the table.
Oooops, looked at my post and realized I only wrote half a thought, there. What I meant to say was more or less: if they're only going to be backfield, why include such a large squad of them? Why not have a mere 10 without any upgrades who cower out of line of sight or go to ground in a ruin any time they get sneezed at?

If they could swap for an autogun for free, sure, run shooty blobs just for dakka. But paying points for the privilege of losing melee attacks on a squishy, BS3 unit? Nah, no thanks. And without the autogun support, I can't justify heavy stubbers. And if they're just a backfield objective camper, why invest in extra bodies or flamers? They're there to be an invisible, zero-threat unit that wins you the game by your opponent forgetting that they're on an objective.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Oooops, looked at my post and realized I only wrote half a thought, there. What I meant to say was more or less: if they're only going to be backfield, why include such a large squad of them? Why not have a mere 10 without any upgrades who cower out of line of sight or go to ground in a ruin any time they get sneezed at?

If they could swap for an autogun for free, sure, run shooty blobs just for dakka. But paying points for the privilege of losing melee attacks on a squishy, BS3 unit? Nah, no thanks. And without the autogun support, I can't justify heavy stubbers. And if they're just a backfield objective camper, why invest in extra bodies or flamers? They're there to be an invisible, zero-threat unit that wins you the game by your opponent forgetting that they're on an objective.
Because 10 models can vanish under a single large pie plate?

I don't really have a good reason to run them...but I don't have a good reason not too. I'm kind of hoping the Helcult turns out to be good because I totally want to run one.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Talking to some folks it looks like the cultists are a good bunker for a Sorc who basically Divs the Forgefiend.

I just don't know if sticking the Sorc on a Palanquin is a good trade for the loss of one of the Div powers.
 

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JUGGERNUT
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I wouldn't take the Palanquin, myself. I just hate the Nurgle Powers completely. Slaanesh, Telepathy, and Divination all look better.

If you had him in a squad of Cultists I think the extra wounds and attack wouldn't matter as much. If he got charged, it could matter, but I'd rather have a good power.

Best support would probably be the Diviniation Sorc. Twin-linking 12", ignoring cover, overwatching at full BS, and 4+ Invuln 12" to a unit are all great.

As an aside, I hate that we can't put all our powers into 1 pantheon discipline. What the hell, with that rule?
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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As an aside, I hate that we can't put all our powers into 1 pantheon discipline. What the hell, with that rule?
Aaaand you'll notice that they dropped that rule in the Daemons codex.
 

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JUGGERNUT
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It makes sense. Probably worth skipping Terminator armor too I bet just to avoid running up his points too high for what he's doing, or would that be a reasonable investment for his survivability?
Hmm, it could be a happy medium, but essentially you're spending 25+ on a 2+ armor save, if you already have the Sigil of Corruption. A 2/4 isn't a bad thing at all, but that's a lot of points. An AP3 large blast template would definitely suck without the Terminator armor. But if they're in cover it's not so bad. I guess it depends on the situation and what sort of army you'll be up against.

Aaaand you'll notice that they dropped that rule in the Daemons codex.
Haha, yeah, I did notice that. Too bad the Daemon powers aren't too hot, either.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Neither have I!

I ran a Nurgle DP back when I played CSM with the old book and never took Sorcerors. Now though, since I want to run Kranon (sort of) I kind of need to take a Lord...and the Sorceror isn't a bad option either, and actually is a nice enough option to push a DP off the list (sorry Be'Lakor!).
 

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JUGGERNUT
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I like Be'lakor, but he's pretty pricey. Crimson Slaughter generic daemon princes just don't seem all that impressive to me. No Divination, Sword of the Relentless, or 2+ IWND armor.

I guess a Biomancy Prince with the Slaughterer's Horns could be pretty good, but that seems like the only way to improve one in a CS army.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Yeah, generic DPs aren't that hot for the CS (which is fair there probably aren't any proper DPs who belong to the Warband at this point anyways). I've got one DP built for that rare occasion when someone turns into one (PA and no wings), guess I won't need a second one for a while yet.

Not unless I ally them to C:CSM at least.
 

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Warsmith
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Hey Zion.

Just read over this thread, I thought I would make some comments. (I still haven't see the CS codex, so I will skip over the artifacts / HQ options, but I think you have that covered)

Troops:
2 Squads: CSM (x 10), MoK, IoW, +CCW, 2 Melta, Gift of Mutation on the champ (Give the Champ a Lighting Claw or a Power Weapon?), Rhino, Dirge Caster, Havoc Launcher

The Rhino should pack a Havoc, its well worth the points. Not sure on the Dirge Caster only run the Landraider.. I would go with a Power Sword on the Champ, and drop the GOM as well. With MoK you get counter attack so dont worry about charging just geting close and shooting


1 Squad: Cultists (20-35), Heavy Stubber or Flamers (backfield objective holders mainly)

I love Cultists, I recently have been hiding 10 within a bastion with a Heavy Stubber, arm the Bastion with a quad-gun. and it becomes a great fire-base. {Add in a Void shield or two and its a great way to hold a objective}

Fast Attack:
Heldrake, Baleflamer
Raptors (x10), 2 Flamers, 2x LC on the Champ, Gift of Mutation on the Champ (suggested marks? Objective/Pathfinder/Weapon Team hunters)
Bikes or Spawn, max unit (depending on the Lord)

I like Raptors, again drop the GOM. Power weapon and perhaps a Combi-weapon works well on the AC, I would add Mok to them for the extra attack. Mossy is correct with his views on Raptors, bikes are faster and better in most case. But In the Age of Fortifications, and games with lots of tall ruins, the can jump from building to building, and use flamers to clear-out the cover save reliant snipers that love these type of game.

So yes bikes are good, but they forfill a more AT task in my lists, Raptors are good for the dug-in infantry. So I would suggest a unit of each, Spawn are also Ace, I love running single units of them they are ignored and rip up small units or tie down bigger ones.

Heavy Support:
Forgefiend (Triple Plas build) (dropped as point require)
2x of either Vindicators (Possessed), Predators (maybe Possessed?) or Obliterator units.

Iam a fan of Predators. I would personaly take a Forgefiend with the auto-cannons and the two Predats with just the TL Lascannon turrent.
I would also add Helbrutes!
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Honestly I'd worry about charging when it comes to the CSM squads because by declaring the charge I open them up to Overwatch and the Icon of Wrath at least gives them a better potential of getting stuck in, even with casualties, thanks to it providing a re-roll to charge range. But yes, GoM can probably go. And while I like Lighting Claws (I've got all these extras thanks to the Warp Talons kit!) a Power Sword is probably better (and is cheaper).

Looks like the new best way for Cultists to hold Objectives is with the Helcult. Who doesn't want 70 Cultists and a Helbrute as a giant anchor on the back lines? :p

I am looking at both a unit of Raptors and a unit of Bikes. Also I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks they have some use in a game that requires a lot of terrain.

I want the Plasma Forgefiend mostly because he looks cool. Yes that's a dumb reason, but it's my reason non-the-less. :p
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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And while I like Lighting Claws (I've got all these extras thanks to the Warp Talons kit!) a Power Sword is probably better (and is cheaper).
I've crunched the numbers and I actually disagree. A power sword gets you an extra attack, sure, but the more attacks you are throwing, from Rage and the like, the more the lightning claw begins to edge out the power sword--and that's just against MEQ. Against higher toughness enemies, the lightning claw is demonstrably better.

Looks like the new best way for Cultists to hold Objectives is with the Helcult. Who doesn't want 70 Cultists and a Helbrute as a giant anchor on the back lines? :p
I'm considering running them rather differently: 35 Cultists bubble wrapping a Helbrute which advances up the field, and 10 Cultists hiding in a ruin out of line of sight on your home objective (still Fearless in case a few get sniped from the edges).

I am looking at both a unit of Raptors and a unit of Bikes. Also I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks they have some use in a game that requires a lot of terrain.
...all right, perhaps the single largest failing of bikes is their inability to get onto higher storeys of ruins (where my regular opponents tend to put their objectives, too).
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Well in the end I couldn't resist temptation with the CSM and he got paired Lighting Claws. Good? No. Hilarious if he ends up in a challenge and gets to swing on the turn he charges? With 5 attacks that reroll wounds? Yes.

I think we can safely saw I'm not 100% competitive by now. :p
 

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Warsmith
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I've crunched the numbers and I actually disagree. A power sword gets you an extra attack, sure, but the more attacks you are throwing, from Rage and the like, the more the lightning claw begins to edge out the power sword--and that's just against MEQ. Against higher toughness enemies, the lightning claw is demonstrably better.
To make the math more of a problem. You do have a 1 in 6 chance of having preferred enemy via your warlord, and if you are fighting a 'Spacemarine' army, it does make the power sword better, and their are a few other ways to get similar bonuses that tip it in the favor of the Power Sword.

But at the end of the day, I think its a very marginal split, which to be honest is a rarity in this hobby, normally one option is clearly superior over others.

Oddly though, Iam becoming more of the fan of the Power Spear, thinking of running it on Kornate AC's (In my force that's going to be a Raptor Champion and a CSM squad that hides in a landraider before the charge.)
 
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