Warhammer 40k Forum and Wargaming Forums banner

1 - 20 of 20 Posts

·
The Omnipotent
Joined
·
256 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Me and my mate had a game yesterday, trying out the new rulebook and came upon a small problem. He had a squad of empire handgunners and i had a chariot squad at his front and a skeleton warrior squad at his flank, both ready to charge. I moved my warriors first and when i moved the chariots, he elected to stand and shoot. I said they wouldn't be able to because they were already 'in combat' (as i had moved the warriors first), and he said that they would be able to because they would, in reality be charging at the same time. which sounded reasonable so i allowed the stand and shoot. My argument was that i was being tactical about the charge by moving the warriors first to deny them stand and shoot.

Who would have been correct here? because the rulebook doesn't cover this specific scenario.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
534 Posts
Your friend has it right. Each time you declare a charge, your opponent declares a charge reaction. so when you declared a charge with your skellies he declared a hold. Then when you declared a charge with your chariots, he is entitled to declare a charge reaction of stand and shoot, even though your skellies are in base contact
 

·
WFB Moderator
Joined
·
8,248 Posts
Ive been puzzling over this exact same issue for the last few days and I think the BRB is in 2 minds about it...
The way I believe its meant to be played in8th is that you declare a charge and a reaction to it (resolving stand and shoot instantly), move onto the next charge and reaction and when its all been declared work out the charges in any order the attacker wishes.
- this is the only way I can see the rules working sensibly. WHats not so good is that while that interpretation is supported by the rules, so is the revers one of completing a charge before declaring the next one... that's why I've been going round in circles on this one. The most confusing part of this is the example- it says a unit is charged by 3 enemies, its holds to the first one, stand & shoots the 2nd and flees the 3rd... thats it. Doesnt say if those units have moved one at a time, or if fleeing stops the stand and shoot. I assume the unit gets to stand and shoot and then flees... and that any of the attacking units can try to redeclare their charge or carry on through and try to catch the now fleeing unit.

If it sounds like I'm confused it might be because I am... especially after my local GW manager tells everyone charges are moved before others are declared (and that is how all the managers our area, if not the UK, were taught the rules in their training sessions)... but if thats true then the BRB's example has a unit, possibly in combat first shooting, and then possibly in combat with 2 enemy units, fleeing a 3rd. :scratchhead:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
630 Posts
In 8th you declare ALL charges and all charge reactions before moving any models, once all charges have been declared and all reactions resolved then you start moving models.

So in your instance the warriors declared a charge, he elected to hold, next you declared a charge with the chariots, he elected to stand and shoot. Assuming those were the only charges, you then move the chariots into contact.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,559 Posts
In support of declare all then move: the rules on charging mention declaring a charge where there are intervening models being legal as the models could move; as the only way they could move within the charge sub-phase is for them to also charge declaring and moving cannot be unit by unit.
 

·
The Omnipotent
Joined
·
256 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Thanks guys, helped a lot
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
545 Posts
So what about the stand-and-shoot then flee thing? Do you get to shoot then run away or what?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
596 Posts
So what about the stand-and-shoot then flee thing? Do you get to shoot then run away or what?
Being charged by multiple units is the only way for a unit to get multiple charge reactions. Otherwise, a unit either chooses to Stand-and-shoot (and doesn't flee) or Flees (and doesn't Stand-and-shoot).

Player A declares a charge against unit B1. Player B's response is Stand-and-shoot. Player A declares his next charge, and it's also against B1. Player B can still declare a Flee! reaction for B1, and B1 will move. (There's a more elaborate version of this described on page 18, "There's Too Many of Them").

But in any event, the unit only gets to shoot once (again, on page 18, the same section).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
267 Posts
Thanks for asking this question and also thanks to those who answered it. I have always been confused about how it works

Skar
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
885 Posts
One clarification. The stand and shoot and flee reactions are resolved at the time they are declared, not later. Thus, the book gives an example where a unit is charged, declares a stand and shoot and resolves the stand and shoot and then a second charge is declared and the unit declared a flee reaction and flees. This means one can get both a stand and shoot and flee. Also, the BRB is very clear that a unit gets only one stand and shoot, not two. Only charges are resolved at the end after all the charge reactions have been earlier resolved.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,166 Posts
Also, all charges against a specific unit are declared and moved together. Unit Archer1 is in position to be charged by Cav1, Spear1, Beast1, and Cav2. The Charging person chooses to charge with Cav1, Cav2, and Spear1, declaring all these charges in that order. Archer1 decides to Hold against Cav1, Stand + Shoot against Cav2, and Flee Cav3. He rolls his Stand + Shoot, then flees Cav3. I THINK Cav1 and Spear1 cannot pursue as they did not flee him, only CAV3 can run him down.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
596 Posts
Creon, I think you're getting 7th edition rules mixed in here. Look at the example in the middle of the right column on page 18.

In the example, they do exactly the opposite of what you suggest. In the example, three separate units declare charges on the same unit, and the declarations are done in sequence.

If you declare a charge, the charging unit moves. And according to page 23, if a charging unit catches a fleeing unit, it's all over for the fleeing unit, without regard to from whom it was originally fleeing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
885 Posts
Actually, Creon is right. Don't confuse declaring charges with resolving charges.
The sequence of events in the charges subphase is as follows (from my study guide notes with page references to the BRB with additional notes added):

Declare Charge Subphase Rules
Distances can be measured (pp. 6 and 16). Models/units subject to berserk rage (frenzy) must pass a leadership test to avoid charging in this subphase if a charge is feasible (within M+2D6”) (p. 70).
There is a specific sequence of events in this subphase (pp. 16-23):
1. The player whose turn it is may choose one unit he controls and declare a charge at an enemy unit that is viable (possible to complete) (p. 16).
2. The target unit being charged chooses a reaction of hold, stand and shoot, or flee and resolves the reaction (pp. 16-17). If charged by a terror causer and not immune, then the charged unit must pass a leadership test to stand and shoot or hold (p. 78). Must flee if fleeing (p. 17).
3. If the charged unit flees, the charging unit may attempt to redirect its charge at a new viable enemy unit by passing a LD test, and, if the LD test is passed, may declare a “fresh charge” against the new target enemy unit and that unit then makes a charge reaction. If there are no enemy units that are viable, then a redirect cannot be attempted. Only one redirect charge may be attempted per turn. (p. 18)
4. Player whose turn it is may choose another unit he controls and declare a charge against an enemy unit that is viable (possible to complete) and the second and third steps are then repeated. Then another unit controlled by the player may declare a charge until no more charges and reactions are declared. (p. 16)
5. All charge moves are rolled and resolved after all charges have been declared (p. 18-23). A charge will succeed if the charge roll equals or exceeds the distance from the charging unit to the charged unit (p. 19). Wheeling is not measured during the charge resolution (p. 14). The player may choose order of resolution of charges and must roll and resolve each charge individually before moving to the next charge (p. 18). Multiple charges at the same unit are resolved at once (roll the dice for each charging unit and assume that they charge at the same time, p. 23).

A charge can only be declared against a unit that is in the line of sight of at least one model of the charging unit (in the unit’s front arc) and within range (p. 16).
Maximum charge distance is M”+2D6” (p. 19), but units with swiftstride and similar special rules roll 3D6 and choose the greater two of their three dice for their 2D6” (p. 76).
One wheel of up to 90 degrees is allowed during the charge (p. 20) but must wheel to “close door” on contacting enemy unit (or enemy unit wheels to contact if charging unit cannot, p. 20).
A failed charge results in a movement forward directly at the target (including wheeling) by the shortest route equal to the greatest of the two dice used to calculate the 2D6” portion of the charge range (p. 19).
Only one stand and shoot is allowed for a unit in a turn (p. 18).
A unit charged by a terror-causing model/unit must pass a LD test in order to hold or stand and shoot unless immune (p. 78).
If the target unit declares a flee reaction, then the charging unit may redirect its charge if it passes a LD test (p. 18).
If a unit cannot be charged without clipping another enemy unit, then both units must be charged (p. 18).
If a charging unit contacts a fleeing unit, the fleeing unit is destroyed, the charging unit cannot move further in the Movement Phase, and the charging unit may reform by passing a LD test (p. 23).
Multiple charges against a common enemy unit must be resolved at the same time (p. 23).
A charger may not come into contact with a unit it has not declared a charge against (p. 22).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,190 Posts
Just as a by-the-way olderplayer, I think that post might be edging a bit close to the limit of what we are legally allowed to post regarding the rules, so I would maybe consider posting a little less "comprehensively" in future? As a friendly word of caution. :)

These two pages actually cleared up a couple of things I was fuzzy on, thanks to everyone who contributed!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
309 Posts
realisticly though you'd think that if a unit opted to stand and shoot, by the time it was finished shooting it wouldnt have a chance to flee.

Also here's a question say a unit is charged in the front and opts to hold, and then is charged in the rear and flees, effectively fleeing through the charging unit. In 7th it would be easily resolved as chop chop dead. But now what would happen?
Would they count as fleeing through a unit and take dangerous terrain tests, or would it count as a unit charging a fleeing unit and making it flee back into another charging unit causing an infinate game of warhammer pong.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
885 Posts
Great question. Since the flee reaction is resolved before any charge attempts, and then the charges are resolved, the fleeing unit will flee toward the first charging unit and the first charging unit will most likely contact the fleeing unit and destroy it per the rules (one of two possible ways under the rules) and then get a reform in that case.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
596 Posts
I think it's bizarrely possible that a fleeing unit could elude pursuit by skipping over one or the other of the charging units.

Let's say that you have Enemy Unit A. Charger #1 is 1" in front of Unit A, and Charger #2 is 1" behind Unit A. If Unit A flees, it's going to pass right over either Charger #1, or Charger #2 (depending on which one it flees from), take some dangerous terrain tests, and the two charging units are going to be stuck attempting to redirect because they'll either be in each others way or facing in the wrong direction. :shok:

The charging units destroy the fleeing unit when they complete the charge, according to page 23. Simply coming into contact with the enemy isn't enough to destroy the fleeing unit.
 
1 - 20 of 20 Posts
Top