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in 40k, Space Wolves have no successor chapters (other than the failed Wolf Brothers)
in 30k, they were a legion

they went from a legion to a chapter with no successors...what happened to the rest of the Wolves?
My guess would be because a large portion of the original legions were made up of stock from terra where as now the SW only get recruits from fenris. Replacing casualties would become slower. Wolves are still one of the bigger chapters though (not as big as black templars but they recruit from many planets.)
 

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All chapters are roughly 1000. The Space Wolves Great Companies are about 120 strong and there's twelve of them so their closer to 1500. The Templars are several thousand strong, divided into many crusades. The Salamanders are smaller having smaller companies and less companies.

As for the Space Wolves size they would have taken a lot of casualties during the heresy, fist against the thousand sons then the night lords and alpha legion (both of which ambushed the wolves at varying points in the Heresy) as well as casualties sustained during the scouring.

Also perhaps there were some second founding chapters from the wolves we just don't have the records of it.

Mainly though it's just one of those issues that popped up when the average legion size was set at 100,000 rather than 10,000. It really messes up a lot of other numbers and stuff.
 

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They had the Wolfbrothers. The were wiped out due to mutations.

Also keep in mind the Wolves were pretty beaten up and after taking out the TS. Plus the scouring.

And the Space Wolves are much bigger than a codex chapter. Each Great Company varies, but usually a number around 200 is given. So something around 2000-2500 wolves are around.
 

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There are a number of things you need to consider.

Going back to the Great Crusade, it's implied that the Wolves were involved in the sanction of at least one other legion prior to the Heresy, which means that, even by then, they were probably a below average sized legion because of the likely casualties sustained in an astartes vs astartes war.

Then came the Siege of Prospero, where the Wolves took significant casualties fighting the Sons. Then Russ still dispatched an entire Great Company to finish the job. Following that, they were ambushed by a numerically superior Alpha Legion and then had to return to Terra to help fight off the retreating traitors.

Then came the Scouring, where the majority of the loyalist legions who weren't already pretty much wiped out got brutalised retaking what was lost during the Heresy. So by then, they would have been drastically reduced from their original numbers.

And they did have one successor chapter, the Wolf Brothers, which basically comprised of half the forces of the Wolves that were left (including gear, armour etc). Unfortunately for them, the Wolf Brothers fell to mutation and had to be disbanded.

And the Wolves are still considerably larger than other chapters. If I remember correctly, by the end of Battle of the Fang, despite nearly an entire Great Company getting destroyed, the Wolves still numbered around 2000 warriors, twice as large as a normal chapter.

Edit: Damnit, ninja'd multiple times. Also to add, the Wolves can't have successors because their geneseed goes ape shit with mutation if they're away from Fenris.
 

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What i understand on numbers within Chapters is that not all chapters are equal in numbers.

In theory each chapter has 1,000+, but some are dying, some chapter are down to less than 100.

Post heresy each Legion that remained loyal were either eager or were forced to break up, some legions had 10's of thousands of Space Marines, but broke up to form many 1st & 2nd founding chapters.
 

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Not to mention if one legion kept 10,000-100,000 astartes while all the others broke into 1000 man chapters, specifically so no one man had that much power, i could see some tensions forming and the wolves becoming more of a liability than an asset.

By keeping roughly twice as many men as the average chapter, they kept there honor by ignoring the codex, but they didn't make themselves a target for concern.
 

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Not to mention if one legion kept 10,000-100,000 astartes while all the others broke into 1000 man chapters, specifically so no one man had that much power, i could see some tensions forming and the wolves becoming more of a liability than an asset.

By keeping roughly twice as many men as the average chapter, they kept there honor by ignoring the codex, but they didn't make themselves a target for concern.
They may have more than twice the number of a Codex Chapter now but at the break up of the Legions it would have been monumentally stupid to do anything other than split into equal 1,000 strong Chapters. The Imperial Fists were fired upon by the Imperial Navy for dissenting, do you think the SW would have received any warmer a response if they'd 'rebelled' as well?

I imagine the SW have acted in a similar manner to the Black Templars, building up their numbers to the current level rather than starting from such a position.

Really the size of Chapters has been the only part of the Codex that was ever rigorously enforced, the rest is more of a 'take it or leave it' matter.
 

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They may have more than twice the number of a Codex Chapter now but at the break up of the Legions it would have been monumentally stupid to do anything other than split into equal 1,000 strong Chapters. The Imperial Fists were fired upon by the Imperial Navy for dissenting, do you think the SW would have received any warmer a response if they'd 'rebelled' as well?

I imagine the SW have acted in a similar manner to the Black Templars, building up their numbers to the current level rather than starting from such a position.

Really the size of Chapters has been the only part of the Codex that was ever rigorously enforced, the rest is more of a 'take it or leave it' matter.
That would make sense but it still leaves seemingly a lot of marines uncounted for. If they did break up into two 1000 man strong chapters (three possibly based on the Aprocrypha of Skaros) then that would mean there were only about 2000-3000 space wolves left. I realise they did suffer quite a few casualties but were never describes as being almost wiped out like the raven guard and salamanders who had about 3000- 1000 astartes by the end of the heresy mostly because of the drop site massacre.

I guess its possible the Alpha legion did enough damage to them while staling them from reaching terra but still it seems like a low number to me.

if the above is correct, where are the 2000-2500 estimates coming from?
Forgive me if I am wrong but i think Ragnar had the largest company at about 200 men and then the others had around 150-ish.

150x12=1800+200=2000 give or take a few hear and there.
 

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if the above is correct, where are the 2000-2500 estimates coming from?
The numbers of each Great Company are fluid, currently the 2nd largest (Ragnars) stands at 200 warriors but for all that the others might only be slightly smaller than or, in some cases, half the size or less.
 

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if the above is correct, where are the 2000-2500 estimates coming from?
The end of Battle of the Fang mentions that there are about 2000 warriors left after the invasion by the Sons.



So their numbers do seem to be between 2000 - 2500 around a 1000 years after the heresy, though their numbers might have changed in the following 9000 years.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
between 2000 - 2500
OK, now I'm wondering where the 120 number comes from (mentioned by Rems)

never knew that the two chapters fought
 

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They may have more than twice the number of a Codex Chapter now but at the break up of the Legions it would have been monumentally stupid to do anything other than split into equal 1,000 strong Chapters. The Imperial Fists were fired upon by the Imperial Navy for dissenting, do you think the SW would have received any warmer a response if they'd 'rebelled' as well?
Complete conjecture on my part, but I think that the Fists being fired on was a one-time thing. Once it came that close, I don't think anyone was interested in risking that kind of calamity again. Hence Dorn splitting the Legion to Chapters and sending off his hotheads with the forever-crusading Black Templars.

I imagine the SW have acted in a similar manner to the Black Templars, building up their numbers to the current level rather than starting from such a position.
Where does it say they built up their numbers, though? I have always been under the impression that they departed as they were--with extra numbers.

Also: Chompy Bits, agreed 100%.

Cheers,
P.
 

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The Imperial Fists were fired upon by the Imperial Navy for dissenting, do you think the SW would have received any warmer a response if they'd 'rebelled' as well?
The difference is, the fists bottled it and caved to the pressure, whereas we know the wolves will happily take on other imperial organisations. It's hinted in the codex that even the Inquisition and AdMech thread carefully around them. It's a moot point though, as they did split in the end.

As to their numbers, I think it's safe to say that when they split their post heresy numbers it was a 50/50 division. Considering their losses on Prospero, and then losing half of what was left to the failed Wolf Brothers, they weren't in great shape to start with. Considering their contempt for the codex as well, I think a figure of a couple of thousand, maybe a tad more, sounds about right. However, I don't think even Grimnar would be too sure of his chapters numbers. Great companies have been known to go missing for decades, or to disappear altogether.
 

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The difference is, the fists bottled it and caved to the pressure, whereas we know the wolves will happily take on other imperial organisations. It's hinted in the codex that even the Inquisition and AdMech thread carefully around them. It's a moot point though, as they did split in the end.

As to their numbers, I think it's safe to say that when they split their post heresy numbers it was a 50/50 division. Considering their losses on Prospero, and then losing half of what was left to the failed Wolf Brothers, they weren't in great shape to start with. Considering their contempt for the codex as well, I think a figure of a couple of thousand, maybe a tad more, sounds about right. However, I don't think even Grimnar would be too sure of his chapters numbers. Great companies have been known to go missing for decades, or to disappear altogether.
Yeah, according to the SW Codex, the Inquisition can sniffing around Fenris for there "non-God Emperor" faith in other things (still following their faith in the God Emperor, just extra Space Wolves exclusive stuff) and once the Space Wolves told them to go piss off, the Inquisition wasn't welcome, the Inquisition came back with a small fleet and got their ass handed to them and eventually said "Okay, okay, this shit ain't worth it." and left them alone.
 

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Yeah, according to the SW Codex, the Inquisition can sniffing around Fenris for there "non-God Emperor" faith in other things (still following their faith in the God Emperor, just extra Space Wolves exclusive stuff) and once the Space Wolves told them to go piss off, the Inquisition wasn't welcome, the Inquisition came back with a small fleet and got their ass handed to them and eventually said "Okay, okay, this shit ain't worth it." and left them alone.
But of course they'd have had the support of most of the Adeptus Astartes if things had soured further, in 30k they were up against the majority of the Astartes as well as the new Imperium.
 
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