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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've found the following info on Lexicanum which states it's from the Space Wolves 5th Edition Codex (which I don't have so if you do please feel free to check it). It says:

"The Space Wolves revere the Emperor as the greatest warrior of all time, the only being to have ever bested Leman Russ in hand-to-hand combat. When Space Wolves call upon Russ or the Emperor in battle, it is to witness the deeds of men and to judge the fallen."

Now we know from Betrayer that Angron did best Leman Russ in combat so did the Space Wolves conveniently forget about this or did the incident not happen the way Angron said it did? Angron isn't the most reliable source after all.
 

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The Space Wolves most likely chose to forget it since that event ultimately failed to open Angrons eyes, and it occurred before the Heresy. Post Heresy, the loyalist legions have focused on the treachery of the traitor legions (because thats who they ultimately chose to be) and you don't go remember anything good about an irredeemable traitor.
 

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The fight wasn't actually finished. Both primarchs had lost their weapons and while Angron had his "boot on [Russ's] throat" (I assume Angron said this figuretively since Russ was able to "crawl" away), the fight did not end there.

After Russ disengaged/crawled away from the melee, Angron was ready to continue, but Russ "opened his arms wide, offering no fight." Then they exchanged some words and that was it.

Was Russ losing at that very particular moment of when he crawled away? Probably yes, but had Russ lost the fight? Almost definitely not since the fight did not finish.

Another explanation is that the codices are propaganda. There's untruths slipped in. I don't like this explanation (except for the clearest examples usually prefaced with "It is said" or "story has it that...") since someone could make the argument that anything and everything is propaganda. This would invalidate the codices as a source of knowledge.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
The Space Wolves most likely chose to forget it since that event ultimately failed to open Angrons eyes, and it occurred before the Heresy. Post Heresy, the loyalist legions have focused on the treachery of the traitor legions (because thats who they ultimately chose to be) and you don't go remember anything good about an irredeemable traitor.
I could see that of another of the Legions but the space wolves come across as the most simple up front guys who say it like it is rather than play with words.
 

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True. All histories were kept in oral form (was least it was in 30k). Maybe something got muddled along the way.

Maybe some combination of the two. Russ didn't really "lose" since the fight never ended...so that's what they kept saying. And then the nuance was lost over time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
True. All histories were kept in oral form (was least it was in 30k). Maybe something got muddled along the way.

Maybe some combination of the two. Russ didn't really "lose" since the fight never ended...so that's what they kept saying. And then the nuance was lost over time.
Good point, maybe the Wolves see losing as submitting as Russ did to the Emperor but from memory Angron said Russ fought to the end. Maybe the Wolves see that as the fight not ending and so it wasn't a technical loss!

That explanation could also explain why they don't see Lion El'Jonson knocking him out as a loss either? Russ had stopped fighting and Jonson struck a low blow (in the Wolves' eyes) so that didn't count as a loss.

I know it's a simplistic way of looking at it but the Wolves do seem to follow dog like behaviour such as baring their throats to submit (from Unremembered Empire and A Thousand Sons I think) so if the Wolf doesn't bare their throat they've not submitted and therefore not lost.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
All the more reason it is believable should they choose to lie.

IIRC, 5th edition dex was written before Betrayer too.
I think it has more to do with the fact the codex was written long before that particular piece of HH fluff was conceived.
Fair point, maybe just a retconned piece of info then. :)
 

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I think its a bit of both the past and present.

Newer fluff does go to show the ferocity of the World Eaters, and ABD does use the Wolves as an intentional legion to show their ferocity. I would say that the talk about this confrontation in The Betrayer, has an interesting tone and reaction. Even the Word Bearers view the conflict differently than the Butcher Nailed tainted World Eaters.

The battle was certainly something in which I think we see certain personalities come out. For instance, Leman Russ was using this conflict to teach Angron a lesson. I believe any other Primarch would have been humiliated at the eventual outcome of that duel had they been in the same position. Angron however, did not care, and testifies to the ideology of fighting simply to fight, and not even to win. Just to unleash hate and blood. I think you could also say that ADB certainly hints that Russ tried to assert himself over other legions due to his personal ideology about things.
 

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I think its a bit of both the past and present.

Newer fluff does go to show the ferocity of the World Eaters, and ABD does use the Wolves as an intentional legion to show their ferocity. I would say that the talk about this confrontation in The Betrayer, has an interesting tone and reaction. Even the Word Bearers view the conflict differently than the Butcher Nailed tainted World Eaters.

The battle was certainly something in which I think we see certain personalities come out. For instance, Leman Russ was using this conflict to teach Angron a lesson. I believe any other Primarch would have been humiliated at the eventual outcome of that duel had they been in the same position. Angron however, did not care, and testifies to the ideology of fighting simply to fight, and not even to win. Just to unleash hate and blood. I think you could also say that ADB certainly hints that Russ tried to assert himself over other legions due to his personal ideology about things.
Russ was a hypocritical bullshit artist and Angron was right to take him down a peg.

Russ did'nt teach anyone a lesson since he struck FIRST and not the supposedly uncontrollable animal.

Angron won the verbal and physical duel.
 

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Did you read the same story?
Yes i did.

Again Angron won the verbal and physical duel.

The ''lesson'' of Russ is cheapened by the fact that he struck first and that he had no business taking it upon himself to teach his brother a lesson.
 

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Grand Lord Munchkin
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Apparently not.

No one knows who fired the first shot. However, we know that Angron was horribly out maneuver and, if he had been even remotely sane or gave a single fuck about his men he would have realized how thoroughly he had cocked up, but he apparently wasn't and never figured it out, even when he had someone spell it out for him.

Did Russ overstep his bounds? Maybe, but one could argue that someone had to at least try to teach the brain damaged nut a lesson.

Did Russ lose? Yes and no. He thoroughly outplayed Angron and played cards just right to deliver the message he wanted to. Did Angron actually learn anything though? Nope, he was too fucked up.

As to who really one the Night of the Wolf: Nobody.
 

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Apparently not.

No one knows who fired the first shot. However, we know that Angron was horribly out maneuver and, if he had been even remotely sane or gave a single fuck about his men he would have realized how thoroughly he had cocked up, but he apparently wasn't and never figured it out, even when he had someone spell it out for him.

Did Russ overstep his bounds? Maybe, but one could argue that someone had to at least try to teach the brain damaged nut a lesson.

Did Russ lose? Yes and no. He thoroughly outplayed Angron and played cards just right to deliver the message he wanted to. Did Angron actually learn anything though? Nope, he was too fucked up.

As to who really one the Night of the Wolf: Nobody.
Russ struck first read it again page 165.

Angron verbally countered every argument that Russ made and Russ out of frustration and anger struck first.

Whoever fired the first shot is unknown the one who resorted to violence when he could not win the verbal battle is.


Russ had a habit of overstepping his bounds and taking on roles that nobody gave him and he paid a dear price for it against Angron.

Angron never drank the emperors kool aid he saw the emperor exactly for who he is Russ could not handle it when Angron plainly stated this.

There was no great lesson that Russ taught Angron as Russ was the wrong Primarch to impart it.

Sanguinus would have been a far better choice and would have had a far better chance to impart the lesson that Russ tried and failed to teach to Angron.
 

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Might want to get those Nails checked, Godking.

He taught the lesson of having a wider perspective. You don't win a war by winning lots of small fights (most of the time). Focusing exclusively on the short-term can screw you in the long-term.

The fact Russ spared Angron's life at the end should have illustrated that pretty clearly.

Also the Emperor sanctioned the World Eaters for their actions on Ghenna by essentially exiling them to the galactic...north, I believe?

I'll quote Lorgar:

‘How can you not see it? [The Wolves] won a victory worthy of engraving on their armour for all time. While you were glorying in your strength, Russ’s sons were loyal enough to come to him, to surround you both, to threaten your life while you stood at the vanguard of your own Legion. That may be the most comprehensive moment of outmanoeuvring in the history of the Legiones Astartes. It’s almost poetic in its elegance and emotional resonance. He proves his sons’ loyalty, while yours leave you to die. He proves the damage the Nails are doing to your Legion. He proves the tactical strength of taking an objective rather than fighting purely to kill. He spares your life in the hope you’ll see all of this, in a lesson it cost him heavily to teach you, and your reaction is to grin and claim yourself the victor."
 

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Might want to get those Nails checked, Godking.

He taught the lesson of having a wider perspective. You don't win a war by winning lots of small fights (most of the time). Focusing exclusively on the short-term can screw you in the long-term.

The fact Russ spared Angron's life at the end should have illustrated that pretty clearly.

Also the Emperor sanctioned the World Eaters for their actions on Ghenna by essentially exiling them to the galactic...north, I believe?

I'll quote Lorgar:

‘How can you not see it? [The Wolves] won a victory worthy of engraving on their armour for all time. While you were glorying in your strength, Russ’s sons were loyal enough to come to him, to surround you both, to threaten your life while you stood at the vanguard of your own Legion. That may be the most comprehensive moment of outmanoeuvring in the history of the Legiones Astartes. It’s almost poetic in its elegance and emotional resonance. He proves his sons’ loyalty, while yours leave you to die. He proves the damage the Nails are doing to your Legion. He proves the tactical strength of taking an objective rather than fighting purely to kill. He spares your life in the hope you’ll see all of this, in a lesson it cost him heavily to teach you, and your reaction is to grin and claim yourself the victor."
So the dex is correct Russ won, he might not have bested Angron but angron wasn't going to survive.
 

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So the dex is correct Russ won, he might not have bested Angron but angron wasn't going to survive.
This is true, but that's not what the Codex said. The Codex states that no one had bested Russ besides the Emperor...and it should be noted, at least from Angron's perspective, that Russ "crawled" away from him during their fight.

Was Angron winning the fight? Probably. Had he actually won the fight? This is debatable since the fight was still ongoing when...

"...Russ had to crawl away, fanged teeth clenched, breathing spit as much as breath. Strings of it tumbled from his cracked lips with each rasping exhalation.
Angron chased as the Wolf King staggered to his feet, but Russ opened his arms wide, offering no fight.
‘Do you see?’ he said. No, he barked it. He barked it not like asimple beast, but with human passion backed by canine ferocity. Conviction burned in his eyes – the same instinctive viciousness of a dog defending its family. ‘Look, damn you. Look around you. Do you see what you’ve done to your sons?’
At the battle’s core, sense pierced Angron’s aching sight long enough to leave him speechless. The axe in his hand lowered, and he looked out at the ranks of Wolves facing him with their bolters raised. They came in ragged packs, abandoning the warfare to form a ring around the primarchs. Wolf after Wolf – close enough for
Angron to make out the individual totems and talismans rattling against their stormgrey armour – moving to stand in ragged ranks with their brothers."

So did Leman Russ win the hand-to-hand combat? No, he did not. Did he lose it? I don't think there's enough evidence to say he did. Was he losing the fight? Likely.

Still, there's a difference between losing and actually being defeated. Look at the fight between the Lion and the Night Haunter on Tsagualsa. Reversals do happen.
 

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This is true, but that's not what the Codex said. The Codex states that no one had bested Russ besides the Emperor...and it should be noted, at least from Angron's perspective, that Russ "crawled" away from him during their fight.

Was Angron winning the fight? Probably. Had he actually won the fight? This is debatable since the fight was still ongoing when...

"...Russ had to crawl away, fanged teeth clenched, breathing spit as much as breath. Strings of it tumbled from his cracked lips with each rasping exhalation.
Angron chased as the Wolf King staggered to his feet, but Russ opened his arms wide, offering no fight.
‘Do you see?’ he said. No, he barked it. He barked it not like asimple beast, but with human passion backed by canine ferocity. Conviction burned in his eyes – the same instinctive viciousness of a dog defending its family. ‘Look, damn you. Look around you. Do you see what you’ve done to your sons?’
At the battle’s core, sense pierced Angron’s aching sight long enough to leave him speechless. The axe in his hand lowered, and he looked out at the ranks of Wolves facing him with their bolters raised. They came in ragged packs, abandoning the warfare to form a ring around the primarchs. Wolf after Wolf – close enough for
Angron to make out the individual totems and talismans rattling against their stormgrey armour – moving to stand in ragged ranks with their brothers."

So did Leman Russ win the hand-to-hand combat? No, he did not. Did he lose it? I don't think there's enough evidence to say he did. Was he losing the fight? Likely.

Still, there's a difference between losing and actually being defeated. Look at the fight between the Lion and the Night Haunter on Tsagualsa. Reversals do happen.
It's more likely Russ threw the fight, as it's intention was to teach angron something.
 

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Threw the fight? Iffy. No real reason for him to throw the fight when he could have made his point just as well by beating angron senseless. Gone in knowing he'd likely lose? Makes more sense.
 
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